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About Smokeless Muzzleloading

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About Smokeless Muzzleloading

Old 07-13-2005, 06:31 AM
  #11  
 
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Default RE: About Smokeless Muzzleloading

I don't have anything against smokeless muzzle loading or the Savage rifle. From what I have seen this is an outstanding, well made firearm. I personally do not care if someone shoots smokeless, blackpowder, flintlock, sabots, round balls or jumps out of a flippin tree with a spear. That, is a personal choice and as long as a person uses his firearm in an ethical and proper way I don't think one method is any "better" than another. Each has built in limitations, that when respected make for a great way to enjoy our sport and have success.

My issue is the "way" this was presented. An "in your face" commercial post that while not totally innacurate was loaded with statements that were either slanted or spun to heavily favor their product. My choices on how to spend money on products is not completely dependant upon the quality and price of a particular product but is also dependant upon the way I percieve that company does business. "Advertisement" like this really turns me off and I suspect it is not well received by others as well.
R
Hank
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Old 07-13-2005, 07:35 AM
  #12  
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Default RE: About Smokeless Muzzleloading

Exactly akhank. Thats my problem too. Looked way too commercial like. You want to debate smokeless as a regular guy, thats one thing. Coming on here with an infomercial. Please.

I will say it once and say it again. Boy, I hope the Ball's don't stop too quick.
 
Old 07-13-2005, 09:18 AM
  #13  
 
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Default RE: About Smokeless Muzzleloading

Yes, the advancements in muzzleloading are exponential, and far from over.25 years ago there was a similiar debate regardingthe compound bow. This too, will subside w/time. Kudo's to pioneers likeTony Knight, HenryBall, Doc White et al, However, all Wakeman was missing in his blatant endorsement was a quick link to Savage.com.
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Old 07-13-2005, 12:16 PM
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Default RE: About Smokeless Muzzleloading

I personally dont see anything wrong w/ the smokeless. its a small advantage in some areas, but the real "leap" of performance is w/ the inline ignition. The game & fish depts. are quick to jump on the 209 primers, the smokeless m.l. ect...when, as usual they miss the real point. I totally understand the issue of inlines being primitive or not, I would say they are not, but allowing inlines, just no 209's....come on. Just like the smokeless, the real advantage to it just the cleanness of the burn. ...more shooting less cleaning.
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Old 07-14-2005, 12:08 AM
  #15  
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Default RE: About Smokeless Muzzleloading

ORIGINAL: cayugad


I wonder about the actual basis of this quote. I would venture to guess that Doc White was making a point of describingthe enjoyment we black powder shooter have, shooting a black powder rifle. I do not think he was advocating the use of smokeless powder muzzleloaders, although I admit I have not read his book. It would be interesting to see if this quote was perhaps taken out of contex for the use of something else.
That's exactly what the good doctor used during his African Safari:

http://www.whitemuzzleloading.com/Docs%20Latest%20Adventure.htm
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Old 07-14-2005, 12:25 AM
  #16  
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Default RE: About Smokeless Muzzleloading

ORIGINAL: goarmy

Before I start the rant - let it be know that I am a muzzleloading hunter with the latest and greatest firearms, gadgets, gimmicks, and projectiles....

The only sure thing about the current trend in muzzleloader manufacturing (scopes, inline, 209, smokeless..whatever) is that moremanufactures strive to duplicate the qualities and convienience of a typical centerfire fire, the more likely that legislators will re-evaluate the terms "primative" and "blackpowder". These are key terms -especially when determining thelength of special seasons, & eligible game management zones unique to muzzleloading. Eventually these same legislators may dictate that they are only used in a general rifle season. At that point, your scoped modern muzzleloader w/209 ign, saboted boat tails propelled by a 50 gr charge of the mighty "V"will be nothing more than a really expensive & slow reloading single shot.
Government exists to serve the people, not the other way around. Scant few primitive seasons exist. Pellets, sabots, and 209 primers were all claimed to "destroy" muzzleloading seasons. They haven't. If we are afraid of our own government agencies, it is hard to think that there is freedom. No deer can live on the difference between 3 pellets and Accurate Arms 5744.

I like choices. It hardly matters what others choose to shoot, for those are their choices. Smokeless is not the only way, and not all muzzleloading game taken is by smokeless in my case. It likely never will be, I happen to like variety and use it.

http://members.aol.com/randymagic2/ah420carib.wmv

That caribou from last September was from an Austin & Halleck frontloader-- there is no "caribou muzzleloading season."

Very few muzzleloaders shoot blackpowder at all, some never have. Nothing is primitive about a GPS or a laser rangefinder-- should they be banned? Here, you pay your tag money, and you get the opportunity for a couple of deer. That's all just all there is.[]
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Old 07-14-2005, 08:43 AM
  #17  
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Default RE: About Smokeless Muzzleloading

ORIGINAL: RandyWakeman

ORIGINAL: cayugad


I wonder about the actual basis of this quote. I would venture to guess that Doc White was making a point of describingthe enjoyment we black powder shooter have, shooting a black powder rifle. I do not think he was advocating the use of smokeless powder muzzleloaders, although I admit I have not read his book. It would be interesting to see if this quote was perhaps taken out of context for the use of something else.
That's exactly what the good doctor used during his African Safari:

http://www.whitemuzzleloading.com/Docs%20Latest%20Adventure.htm
Randy..

I realize that Doc White used smokeless powder on his African hunt. My question reference the quote concerned his sudden decision that smokeless powder was better. Or was he referring to in his book you mentioned the enjoyment the Black Powder Muzzleloader shooters get when hunting with this style rifle.

I went to the link you posted, that being Doc Gary White's personal web site. I read again about their African Adventure which sounded fantastic to say the least. I also make note of some of his comments reference the hunt.. In the conclusion of his African Hunt comments Doc states,.

Iliked the smokeless because I never had to clean the rifle and the saboted bullet loaded easily without grimy powder residues, but remain tongue-in-cheek about its general use for the average hunter. I had no trouble, having developed a relatively low pressure 1600 FPS load, but found myself double checking with the ramrod to make sure the load column was correct several times a day. Obviously I was nervous about it. Just because I did it safely is no excuse for you to try it.
Because of liability issues I have to recommend that you should not try to duplicate my experience with smokeless powder.
Because of the same liability issues, the White company does not recommend the use of smokeless in their rifles and you void all your guarantees if you do, so don't follow my example. Anyway, if you want a great muzzleloading experience, take on Africa. Take a White rifle with you. You won't regret it.
Good hunting. DOC

In the beginning of his tale of adventure Doc states this,
I also have been experimenting with smokeless powder in the ThunderBolt, but have remained unconvinced that it was safe for general use in the field, where things can get decidedly exciting and/or confusing at times.
This to me would indicate that although Doc White, being a pioneer somewhat himself in the field of muzzleloading rifles still thinks muzzleloading rifles are a fantastic way to hunt anywhere for anything. I could not agree more with the doctor. From his statements concerning smokeless powder he indicates to me, that he is not convinced it is safe for the average hunter (such as myself). or general use in the field. Also in his conclusion, although he applauds the way smokeless powder performed in Africa, he seems to express that it made him very nervous to be hunting with smokeless powder. Or perhaps I am misreading his comments from his site. And as I said before, I never read his book.

So if a black powder expert such as Doc White still gets nervous by the use of smokeless powder and also does not endorse the use of it for the average hunter yet. I will stick with the conventional methods shooting Goex or Pyrodex P, even Triple Se7en with it's sometimes nasty crud ring.. and leave the smokeless powder shooting to the experts.

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Old 07-14-2005, 01:43 PM
  #18  
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Default RE: About Smokeless Muzzleloading

http://www.chuckhawks.com/muzzleloader_index_interviews.htm

Have you ever met Doc White?

You can read his words, and decide for yourself. Doc used a gun designed for Pyrodex, with smokeless, in South
Africa. As he says in the interview, it should be obvious that he designed his Alpha for use with smokeless-- at least eventually. He's been shooting smokeless for some time; that much is quite old news.

The points in the original posting complained of no rifle, or no method of hunting, of no individual. It is generic recital of fact. If one wishes to shoot a Savage or other smokeless rated ML'er with BP / Pyro / T7 / BM3 / Shockey Gold-- have at it. The choice is anyone's to make.

Nothing to knock until you have at least tried it.
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Old 07-14-2005, 02:46 PM
  #19  
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Default RE: About Smokeless Muzzleloading

First off... no, I've never met Doc White. Lets face it, I don't hang around in the same circles as he does, or you do. I also don't get to the same rendezvous that he attends so the opportunity to meet Doc White never presented itself. Personally I would really enjoy sitting down and chatting with him. I am sure he is a wealth of information on black powder shooting and has lots of good stories to tell which I would find most interesting.

The next point I want to address is, I am not knocking the Savage Smokeless Powder Rifle. If people want to shoot them.. fine with me. Why should I even care what you or anyone else shoot. I am more then satisfied with the Black Powder rifle collection I own and shoot.

The original discussion centered around my asking in regard to your original quote, was Doc White now advocating the use of smokeless powder for muzzleloading rifles. I can't read his words becauseI do not own his book. And to be real honest I have no intention of buying it at this time.I also have not readthe interviewwhich you conducted with him. So again, I have no idea whether you discussed smokeless muzzleloaders or what. Whether or not he endorses smokeless powder is no concern to me in all honesty. I personally don't care if he does, you do, or the neighbornext door does. Everyone has their own opinion and can shoot what they want with what propellant they want. I guess we agree on that point.

Your reply to my inquiry about your quoted commentwas to tell me that smokeless powder was what he used to hunt with in Africa and then your link directed me to his web site. I went to the sight and read the adventures about Randy Smith and Doc White's hunt in Africa. I also noted Doc's comments about the use of smokeless powder Would you not agree that reading those comments at the sight you directed me to, would tend to make a person believe that he might not feel the use of smokeless powder was the right choice for the average hunter?

(Doc refers tohimself)remain tongue-in-cheek about its general use for the average hunter
(Doc again)found myself double checking with the ramrod to make sure the load column was correct several times a day. Obviously I was nervous about it.
I also have been experimenting with smokeless powder in the ThunderBolt, but have remained unconvinced that it was safe for general use in the field, where things can get decidedly exciting and/or confusing at times.
Those comments suggest to me that Doc White, a recognized pioneer and expert in the field according to you and others, might not be advocating the use of smokeless powder for the average hunter at this point. I am sure the Savage Muzzleloader which you recommend to all is a great rifle. It's just not the rifle for me.There are some things about the Savage that makes them less interesting to me, were I to purchase another inline rifle.I am satisfied with what rifles I have and the kind of powder I shoot. I am not knocking the one you endorse. Although if I were to buy a new inline it would be a White Super 91 or a T/C Omega. Although I have a few reservations about the White Super 91. Not based on the quality of the rifle but the quality of the parent company.
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Old 07-14-2005, 04:58 PM
  #20  
 
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Default RE: About Smokeless Muzzleloading

I think that white was against the use of smokeless based on a LIABILITY issue. I certainly would NOT use it with a rifle that wasnt SPECIFICALLY designed for it ,Although I'm sure the enginers coulddo it safely as they know their exact specs for their rifle.But the idea of the savage sure is appealing. At least then you could tell where the shot hit because of the lack of smokeespecially on the short shots.
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