Buffalo Hunter,
Where have you hunted Cape Buffalo? And I'm just currios what type of .45-70 did you use and what type of ammunition? What in your opinion is the best all around Buff gun/caliber? Several of my freinds claim that the modern custom .45-70's loaded with thermo nuclear solid loads are the end all cool stuff for Buff. This includes one of my freinds whom is a current Pro in South Africa. It seems that the .45-70 is regaining popularity on the dark contienent. It also seems that Americans tend to perfer the various .416's what have you found?

I do not know anything about shooting a buffalo at 200 yards, so I do not know where that came from. As far as the bear goes I was on a hunt in Maine a few years ago with a buddy of mine that travels with me on most trips. He had got a bear and while we were trying to find a bear for me a call came across the guide's radio that they had a big bear on the run and wanted us to dump our dogs on the trail and go along. As our hunting was slow that morning we caught up with the pack that had finally treed the big bear. The hunter was an older fellow from PA and had an old single shot 45-70. After we gathered the dogs and got them organized the guy took a shot at the head. I do not know why he shot it in the head because it was a record class bear, anyway after the shot hit the bear square between the ears on the top of the head as it peered down at us, he stood up on all fours on the limb he was on. At that point he looked like he was dazed and may fall any second, well instead of falling he came down the tree in front of the guide and my buddy very much alive! Both men shot the bear several times within 10yds with 357. mags and the guide ended up killing it with my .44 mag. After the flurry of activity which only last 20 seconds ended, we inspected the lack of damage the old 45-70 did. There was a perfectly circular patch of hair missing about the size of a milk jug cap. The skull was plainly visible and not penetrated. The bullet had deflected off of the skull. It may have been a fluke and I have heard of stranger things, but it happened. As far as hog wash goes, the entire episode was videoed by me and although it is very shakey footage, the account that I just described is documented. That has been my only experience with a 45-70 thus my comments, however I guess I have been enlighhtened a bit about the new ammo and performance improvements. Good info Surestrike

Red river, Not to run you down as others have already, but to clarify to those who have skimmed this post, your post claims that your guide had an "old single-shot .45-70" which surely would not have been loaded with anything like the new hot loads that newer rifles are capable of firing without damage.
A buddy of mine pays a man nearby to reload for him in all kinds of high velocities, i.e. 8mm mauser 180gr SP at 3000+ fps, 139gr AP SKS up to 3200 fps, and 280 gr TB .45-70 out to 2300 fps. Claims it's kinda a rush to shoot, firstly because it kicks the **** out of him, and secondly because he's not absolutely sure that the gun will fire everytime, rather than blowing up. He takes mulies with it, took one last season at 250 yrds, through both shoulders like a frieght train. I'm sure that a well bonded bullet at anywhere near this velocity (hopefully slower for safety's sake) and within 50 yrds would penetrate the hide of a capie pretty well.

GOTTA LOVE THAT MARLIN MAGIC!!!!

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rather they put their client as close as possible, usually in realm of the buff a long shot is 40 yds.
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wow, it seems like that would put the person in more danger, the buffalo wont have to run as far to get to them but then again, i've never hutned buffalo...whatever

First I hunt in both Zim. and RSA secondly i use a handload of 54 gr of IMR 3031 /405 gr JSP and a Starline 45-70 case. third I've never even attempted a shot at over 70 yds on any African game. And never saw a PH that would allow his client to do so. I have killed Leopard, lion,buff and most of the plainsgame. For the lighter animals I use a 350 Rem mag and my heavy gun is a single shot W&H 45-70.
I have owned a 416 Rigby but was not overly impressed with it. And the gun now sits in the vault for when i hunt elk. i did shoot a bvull moose with it in BC and took him with 1 shot. but nothing I couldn't have done with a 30 06.
besides ammo is too expensive for the 416 458 etc. when the modern handloaded 45-70 still gets the job done and is steeped in a rich heritage as well.

I agree with Nomercy.....a .45-70 can and would kill a cape buffalo, provided the right modern day load is used.

Iknow they make a 500grain bullet for that gun now. That's awesome. As far as the bear story about the bullet bouncing off the head, heck that is totally possible.

I've personally seen 00buck shot bounce off of the glass of a pay phone both, .223 and .308 bullets bounce (deflect) off of car windshield glass, only to cause a small crack.

There are countless and countless documented incidents of every type of handgun bullet bouncing off a skull of a human being. Remember, it only takes on average 16 lbs of blunt force trauma to crack an adult human skull. A .45 ACP for example produces around 300 ft/lbs @ 50 yards with a 230grain bullet. Many many people have been hit in the head with a .45, only to have the bullet either ricochett off, or hit the scalp and travel under the skin only to encircle half of the skull and exit from the otherside. All the while, the human lived to talk about it!

So, like I said, anything is possible. I just feel a .45-70 can do anything.

When the new .450 Marlin rifle round was created about 2 years ago, it was designed to beat factory .45-70 loads. The .45-70 for the reloader has the potential to be every bit better than a .450 Marlin. The only reason ammo makers don't produce modern factory .45-70 loads is due to fear that someone may use that ammo in the old Springfield &quot;trap door&quot; model .45-70's. Therefore, the gun/ammo companies came up with the .450 Marlin. Only the handloader can make the .45-70 a modern, better &quot;killing&quot; load which far surpasses the .450 Marlin.

Buffalo hunter what about the .416 Rigby did you not like? The reason that I ask is this I undrrstand that there is a very real use for longer range guns in some parts of Africa on bigger game and the .416's seem to fit the bill quite nicely. Now I've got the part about you never taking a shot at over 70 yards on African game. I know several people who have and do every year and that's why they say to use .416's.
I've been invited to Tanzania this summer and am debating tasking my .45-70. But I think I'll probably take old reliable in .375H&H and it's twin in .458Lott. This is the same area that my buddy went last year and had some longer range shots. The furthest shot he had on Buff was 103 yds. He confirmed that when I spoke to him today. Apparentley in that block some shots are taken at further range than that.
As far as redrivers comment on the defelected .45-70 round as I said I've seen stranger things happen. I believe alot depends on the angle the bullet struck the skull.

hk45 it does not take a &quot;modern 45-70 load&quot; to kill a cape. The trapdoors with their blk pwd loads have done it countless times during the 1800's-today. My brother has a consession in Tanzinia for capies. Takes around 100 clients a season. The nay sayers to BP trapdoors should see what many natives kill crop raiding capes with. no firearms are owned by the natives &quot;legally&quot; but the old BP blunderbust still shows up now and again.Nearly every wet season he sees old 12 ga. dbl loaders with BP and anything that can be had for a slug. For example lug nuts,washers,bolts,rocks,etc. do in some massive buff. As well as native bows and arrows that are the equivilent of around 45# @ 28&quot; here stateside.
SS: my opinion of caliber is: that with the correct bullet no one needs any larger caliber than a 30 06 to kill any animal in the world. In my opinion too many wish to rely on power rather than marksmanship and getting close.Those that would say &quot; I need a stopper in the event he charges&quot; watch to much TV and Mark Sullivan videos.If you travel across the big salty and you get a shot at ANY dangerous animal. I will guarrantee you if he is heading even remotely in your direction after the shot...your PH will bust him before you can chamber another cartridge. he's not about to risk lawsuits and loss of his coveted PH lis. because of a client's shooting. And that is one thing you can bank on!

I've never hunted cape buffalo nor even been to Africa. However, I have wanted to get a Marlin 45-70 for hogs, black bear and as a brush gun for elk. SS, thanks for the info on hunting bear with a 45-70. Always nice to hear how the round has done in real life. BH, does your brother have a web site?

Calhunter,
Well friend I can tell you one thing for sure. The 45-70 loaded with 405gr soft points is a hog stomping SOB even on the largest hogs. I've never seen anything put a hog down with a body shot quite as nicely as a .45-70.
BuffHunter, I absoloutly agree with you on the point about marksman ship. And over the years I've seen more people flub a shot with the newest super mag that they just bought and have developed a case of the super mag flinchies. I always feel better when a guy shows up in camp with a well worn 06 or 308. I guess that's why I depend on my .375 for so much I don't shoot it so much as I wear it. I've killed hunderds of head of game and shot well over a thousand rounds through it. To me it's like a comfortable old pair of boots not pretty but the one I enevitably grab when walking out the door. One ounce of familiarity is worth 5000lbs of muzzle energy.

Edited by - surestrike on 03/12/2002 10:50:05