Still think wolves arent a problem in Wyoming?
06-08-2004 | 11:27 PM
#1
Thread Starter
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 80
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From: Utah
Still think wolves arent a problem in Wyoming?
On June 6, an article was run in a Wyoming paper I get called the Casper Star Tribune about a SCIENTIST's (yes, a scientist!) study of Wyoming's wolf population. For those of you who believe the feds' "scientific" studies that claim that Wyoming's wolves should not be delisted and for those of you who wont believe anything not supported by science (ahemmm......BrutalAttack), read the following article. I am copying it word for word from my paper, so you can check it out yourself if you think im making this up. Here it is:
WOLVES "SCREWED UP", EXPERT SAYS
Many of the wolves currently inhabiting Wyoming are "screwed up," an animal scientist told the Wyoming Stock Growers Association Saturday.
Jim Knight, a faculty member of the animal and range sciences department of Montana State University, discussed wolf populations and their impacts on the environments at the WSGA's 2004 SUmmer Convention and Trade Show.
From the nods and murmurs of agreement emanating from audience, it seemed Knight was preeching to the Choir.
But this time he had a viewpoint, he said, even environmentalists could agree with- recent politics on the wolves have led to a decline in the quality and health of not only wolf packs, but of moose and elk populations.
Current wolf behavior is unnatural, he siad, because he believes some of their natural instincts- including a wariness of humans and a natural heirarchy mechanism- have been decreased because of the reintroduction program.
Naturally, wolves have a dominance hierarchy mechanism, which means the only breeders in packs are "alpha" males and females. Now, though, many wolves in each pack are breeding, resulting in a population explosion, Knight said.
"At some point, maybe this natural hierarchy will kick in," he predicted.
Until then, though, he said the resulting high population density can increase certain diseases, like mange, that have already affected the state's wolves.
Knight also fears that if a mange epidemic attacks the state's wolves, it will take even more effort to get them delisted from the Endangered Species Act.
Not only that, but Knight said today's wolves are "less wary" and weaker. It's because the strongest, most active ones were killed or removed.
For example, the smart wolves that adapted to their habitats, avoided people and highways and attacked livestock were the same wolves removed from the pack.
This unnatural selection, he said, will leave a pack of the less bright, less healthy wolves to breed future pups.
"The ones that were originally kept in pens, they even started to like hearing the snowmobiles coming because it meant chow-time," he said.
Overall, he said, both ranchers and the wolf population suffer from the policies of the Endangerd Species Act.
"He had so much great information, that was just one of the best presentations of wolves I've ever seen," said Lois Herbst, first vice president fo the WSGA.
This article is just one more ray of truth shining through the bull crap of "scientific" information that the ESA and feds feed the public. How good is their scientific information if they screwed up this big in the first place? In my opinion, the only way to keep the wolves from multiplying and spreading diseases is to do what is done with all other game animals in the same situation- HUNT THEM! It only makes sense. Also, if there are already enough wolves to delist them, and they are currently having a population explosion, why aren't they delisted? The scientific panel already reviewed Wyoming's plan and deemed it appropriate for controling the wolves, so what's the holdup? This issue has gone beyond the yuppies not wanting their precious wolves being destroyed, it has become a matter of thinning out the wolves to prevent the spread of diseases, and to help the moose and elk popultions stay healthy. It's time to delist the wolves.
Also, the wolves are starting to spread way out of their borders. An article in today's paper said a wolf was found dead clear in the hell down by Denver, CO. THATS 500 MILES FROM YELLOWSTONE! And the feds are acting surprised that a wolf was that far out of the park. BULL! It was just one of the many wolves that are migrating clear out of the park. I have hear firt hand testimonies of the wolves being found regularly more than 100 miles out of the park, and Wyoming Game and Fish have confirmed that wolves are beginning to move into an entire different mountain range ( the Bighorn Mountains). I'm getting sick of the wolf situation. Something needs to be done.
Don't you thing so?
WOLVES "SCREWED UP", EXPERT SAYS
Many of the wolves currently inhabiting Wyoming are "screwed up," an animal scientist told the Wyoming Stock Growers Association Saturday.
Jim Knight, a faculty member of the animal and range sciences department of Montana State University, discussed wolf populations and their impacts on the environments at the WSGA's 2004 SUmmer Convention and Trade Show.
From the nods and murmurs of agreement emanating from audience, it seemed Knight was preeching to the Choir.
But this time he had a viewpoint, he said, even environmentalists could agree with- recent politics on the wolves have led to a decline in the quality and health of not only wolf packs, but of moose and elk populations.
Current wolf behavior is unnatural, he siad, because he believes some of their natural instincts- including a wariness of humans and a natural heirarchy mechanism- have been decreased because of the reintroduction program.
Naturally, wolves have a dominance hierarchy mechanism, which means the only breeders in packs are "alpha" males and females. Now, though, many wolves in each pack are breeding, resulting in a population explosion, Knight said.
"At some point, maybe this natural hierarchy will kick in," he predicted.
Until then, though, he said the resulting high population density can increase certain diseases, like mange, that have already affected the state's wolves.
Knight also fears that if a mange epidemic attacks the state's wolves, it will take even more effort to get them delisted from the Endangered Species Act.
Not only that, but Knight said today's wolves are "less wary" and weaker. It's because the strongest, most active ones were killed or removed.
For example, the smart wolves that adapted to their habitats, avoided people and highways and attacked livestock were the same wolves removed from the pack.
This unnatural selection, he said, will leave a pack of the less bright, less healthy wolves to breed future pups.
"The ones that were originally kept in pens, they even started to like hearing the snowmobiles coming because it meant chow-time," he said.
Overall, he said, both ranchers and the wolf population suffer from the policies of the Endangerd Species Act.
"He had so much great information, that was just one of the best presentations of wolves I've ever seen," said Lois Herbst, first vice president fo the WSGA.
This article is just one more ray of truth shining through the bull crap of "scientific" information that the ESA and feds feed the public. How good is their scientific information if they screwed up this big in the first place? In my opinion, the only way to keep the wolves from multiplying and spreading diseases is to do what is done with all other game animals in the same situation- HUNT THEM! It only makes sense. Also, if there are already enough wolves to delist them, and they are currently having a population explosion, why aren't they delisted? The scientific panel already reviewed Wyoming's plan and deemed it appropriate for controling the wolves, so what's the holdup? This issue has gone beyond the yuppies not wanting their precious wolves being destroyed, it has become a matter of thinning out the wolves to prevent the spread of diseases, and to help the moose and elk popultions stay healthy. It's time to delist the wolves.
Also, the wolves are starting to spread way out of their borders. An article in today's paper said a wolf was found dead clear in the hell down by Denver, CO. THATS 500 MILES FROM YELLOWSTONE! And the feds are acting surprised that a wolf was that far out of the park. BULL! It was just one of the many wolves that are migrating clear out of the park. I have hear firt hand testimonies of the wolves being found regularly more than 100 miles out of the park, and Wyoming Game and Fish have confirmed that wolves are beginning to move into an entire different mountain range ( the Bighorn Mountains). I'm getting sick of the wolf situation. Something needs to be done.
Don't you thing so?
06-08-2004 | 11:41 PM
#2
Boone & Crockett
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 10,679
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RE: Still think wolves arent a problem in Wyoming?
I never claimed, and I don't recall any one else claiming, that wolves are not a problem as they stand right now.
What I and most other so called "wolf lovers" said was that the wolf has as much "right" to be here as the rest of the animals like elk and moose do. I believe that we all agreed that the wolves need to be managed just like the rest of the animals out there. With out any concrete plan in place for the immediate and future populations of the wolf it is doomed to fail in one way or another.
What I and most other so called "wolf lovers" said was that the wolf has as much "right" to be here as the rest of the animals like elk and moose do. I believe that we all agreed that the wolves need to be managed just like the rest of the animals out there. With out any concrete plan in place for the immediate and future populations of the wolf it is doomed to fail in one way or another.
06-09-2004 | 07:10 AM
#3
Senior Member
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 1,813
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From:
RE: Still think wolves arent a problem in Wyoming?
A collared wolf that was released in the Upper Peninsula of Michigan was shot dead by a farmer (bless his heart) in Mo.!! That's over 400 miles and two years after the release.
You think the wolf problem is bad now, just wait!!!!!! Some day even the "townies" will see just how stupid the whole idea of releaseing wolves was/is!!!
Drilling Man
The only wolf control we need is here!!
You think the wolf problem is bad now, just wait!!!!!! Some day even the "townies" will see just how stupid the whole idea of releaseing wolves was/is!!!
Drilling Man
The only wolf control we need is here!!
06-09-2004 | 02:05 PM
#4
Typical Buck
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 977
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From: Cedar Valley Utah
RE: Still think wolves arent a problem in Wyoming?
ORIGINAL: bigbulls
I never claimed, and I don't recall any one else claiming, that wolves are not a problem as they stand right now.
What I and most other so called "wolf lovers" said was that the wolf has as much "right" to be here as the rest of the animals like elk and moose do. I believe that we all agreed that the wolves need to be managed just like the rest of the animals out there. With out any concrete plan in place for the immediate and future populations of the wolf it is doomed to fail in one way or another.
I never claimed, and I don't recall any one else claiming, that wolves are not a problem as they stand right now.
What I and most other so called "wolf lovers" said was that the wolf has as much "right" to be here as the rest of the animals like elk and moose do. I believe that we all agreed that the wolves need to be managed just like the rest of the animals out there. With out any concrete plan in place for the immediate and future populations of the wolf it is doomed to fail in one way or another.
Thats right. It seems some poeple on this board are on auto-pilot. We all agree that wolves should be controlled and not protected. But some of you keep making the same posts and points over and over again. No one is saying they should stay listed.
WOLVES SHOULD BE DE-LISTED AND CONTROLLED BY EACH RESPECTIVE STATE. Just not exterminated.
06-09-2004 | 10:17 PM
#7
Nontypical Buck
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 1,572
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From:
RE: Still think wolves arent a problem in Wyoming?
He can say whatever he wants about it. Until he shows some data or conducts a university-sanctioned study, it's just an opinion, albeit a somewhat informed opinion/observation. Besides that he's not a biologist. If you ask a wildlife biologist from the same university he will pull out 32 scientific studies stating otherwise.
If you read the scientific papers that are in print now, you can easily see that the vast majority of the studies do not support his statements. He is probably politically involved with the association to which he spoke and did not want the audience to shoot him.
After reading it again, I realized how far he's reaching in his conclusions. For one thing it's a little premature for him to be saying anything about "unnatural selection" or anything along those lines. We haven't even been studying wolves 1/100th of the time needed to detect trends in selection natural or not.
Just because wolves may not be showing behavior we expect them to show, doesn't mean there is a problem. Wolves have never been in this situation before either and to arbitrarily say that something they do is "unnatural" isn't sound science.
There are wolves everywhere I live and work and I've seen nothing that indicates they may not be afraid of humans, nor have there been any problems regarding livestock.
Wolves are often the scapegoat for any problem ranchers happen to be having. I'm more interested in understanding how other factors related to big game declines work in combination with increased wolf predation to lower populations. All research I have done indicates that while wolf predation is a problem in some populations, it's usually a problem because of some other (human caused) reason, and if we can correct that other reason then the big game population will be able to withstand wolf predation without decreasing. So everyone can win.
If you read the scientific papers that are in print now, you can easily see that the vast majority of the studies do not support his statements. He is probably politically involved with the association to which he spoke and did not want the audience to shoot him.
After reading it again, I realized how far he's reaching in his conclusions. For one thing it's a little premature for him to be saying anything about "unnatural selection" or anything along those lines. We haven't even been studying wolves 1/100th of the time needed to detect trends in selection natural or not.
Just because wolves may not be showing behavior we expect them to show, doesn't mean there is a problem. Wolves have never been in this situation before either and to arbitrarily say that something they do is "unnatural" isn't sound science.
There are wolves everywhere I live and work and I've seen nothing that indicates they may not be afraid of humans, nor have there been any problems regarding livestock.
Wolves are often the scapegoat for any problem ranchers happen to be having. I'm more interested in understanding how other factors related to big game declines work in combination with increased wolf predation to lower populations. All research I have done indicates that while wolf predation is a problem in some populations, it's usually a problem because of some other (human caused) reason, and if we can correct that other reason then the big game population will be able to withstand wolf predation without decreasing. So everyone can win.
06-10-2004 | 02:48 PM
#8
Thread Starter
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 80
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From: Utah
RE: Still think wolves arent a problem in Wyoming?
Here is an article I found on the internet about the wolf's effect on the big game herds in Yellowstone National Park. Its pretty interesting, and it shows that the wolves definately have an effect on the other animals.
[link]http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/804848/posts[/link]
[link]http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/804848/posts[/link]
06-10-2004 | 03:13 PM
#9
Typical Buck
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 977
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From: Cedar Valley Utah
RE: Still think wolves arent a problem in Wyoming?
Well boys I'll be in Yellowstone for a week, leaving tomorrow. I'll let you know if there are any elk left and if the wolves kill the last few survivors. 
06-10-2004 | 09:57 PM
#10
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 1,964
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From: Rocky Mountains, Colorado
RE: Still think wolves arent a problem in Wyoming?
Rather,
Enjoy your trip, nice country, should be a good time even though a little bit on the touristy side.
Unfortunately, unless you are hired by a university with a doctral thesis to prove or can complete a scientific study that will pass peer review in a week's time I'm afraid any observations you may make, any first hand accounts you may make or accounts you may receive from locals or any one else you may meet there will be totally meaningless and not to be taken seriously --- no scientific method, then no meaning or truth. What a hell of a way to go thru life....
Sorry, what is sauce for the goose, .... is sauce for the gander....
EKM
Enjoy your trip, nice country, should be a good time even though a little bit on the touristy side.
Unfortunately, unless you are hired by a university with a doctral thesis to prove or can complete a scientific study that will pass peer review in a week's time I'm afraid any observations you may make, any first hand accounts you may make or accounts you may receive from locals or any one else you may meet there will be totally meaningless and not to be taken seriously --- no scientific method, then no meaning or truth. What a hell of a way to go thru life....
Sorry, what is sauce for the goose, .... is sauce for the gander....
EKM