If the biologists down there are saying that they are probably 1) uninformed or 2) trying to get the public off thier back.

They aren't looking at the big picture of the species long term survival nor are they aknowledging the genetic aspects of conserving and letting the population grow.

There are numerous factors at play and the feds don't do the research. Independent scientists from universities do the research and the feds make the final decision based on the best science available. It's frustrating to see that many bears in your local area but it's not like that elsewhere. We have to look at the bigger picture if we want the species to survive. Besides grizzlies will never be able to be hunted in large numbers so the average guy will probably have to compete with rich guys for the tags.

Brutal, your right there won't be a large scale kill on grizzlies if they allow a hunt. BUT......even 5 or 6 bears taken out a year would really help.

I don't know why the feds won't pay any attention the the bioligist. Especially the local guys and not just game and fish guys. I can see where they would have a different veiw point. The G&F is set up to manage wildlife, "not just preserve it."

I don't think the bioligist around here are "uninformed or backing down from the people". If anything these guys are out there in the hills with the grizzlies more than anyone one else

Here's an example of how things are around here........The feds ask a panel of 11 sciencetist (bioligist I suppose) about Wyoming's wolf plan. 10 of the 11 hand picketed panel members (by the feds) said that Wyoming's plan would work. So what happens in DC????? The feds reject the plan!!!!!!!!!!!!

The Endangered Species Act is very specific in what it says about delisting species. Whether or not we like it, or if it's even correct, isn't the issue. The issue is it's the law and the process has to be followed before they can be delisted. It's a pain in the ass. As a SPECIES bears aren't ready to be delisted. Just because there is one population that is doing ok doesn't mean protection can be lifted. I think some people get confused by that.

Regardless of the arguments, the bear isn't going to be delisted anytime soon so debating it is somewhat pointless.

Brutal you say just because the populations are high is certain areas, doesn't allow hunting for the good of the over all population doesn't hold water. How about big horn sheep, mountain goats, wild buffalo. All of them live in very limited areas and the populations are limited but they are still hunted. Wyoming hunts wild buffalo in the Jackson hole area. Pretty limited area. Pretty limited species. Is that good for the "overall population" of wild buffalo? Or is it just to please the locals (hunters, ranchers, outfitters, home owners). "OR IS IT GAME MANAGEMENT"????????

It is the endangered species act that is the problem. IMO it's a joke. I live in an area that has 3 endangered species, grizzly, wolf and black footed ferret. Now the feds want to add 2 more. The sage grouse and the whitetail prarie dog. Once a species is on there, it's almost impossible to get them off!!!!!!!! There is no sound management behind it. In fact there is no management at all. IT'S OFF LIMITS!!!!!!! Squirrels petters and bunny huggers love it and they've got the "act" to back them up.

No matter how you look at it it's all politics.

I tell you what,when they come off the list here in Montana,my name will be in the drawing.

I don't know how many tags would be avalible,but here is my figuring on it.
1/4 of tags to Out-of state huters/Out fitter sponsored
3/4 to the resident drawing.
Once in a lifetime draw,you draw one,you can't put back in for the rest of your life.
So happy applying.

Good questions. I'll try to answer them for you the best that I can.

Big horn sheep and mountain goats never really have occured in huge numbers in the lower 48. They are also wide spread and have a higher reproductive rate than grizzlies. They also occupy basically the same areas they always have (and have been successfully introduced in more).
Their habitat is essentially intact, since it's really not desirable for human use like housing developments and the like. They still number in the tens of thousands if not more.

The buffalo: for one thing they are heavily ranched in captivity so we are never in danger of losing those genetics. Also, they are a different animal than the grizzly and their populations respond differently to increased mortality (say from hunting). I'm not an expert so I can't tell you exactly why but for one thing they occupy smaller home ranges and so a sustainable population can exist in a smaller area.

Whereas the grizzly may only have 1 cub every two years while occupying a 100 square mile home range per bear. So with the amount of wild land we have left along with the human uses of that land, it can be difficult to get populations to a level where they can withstand added mortality from hunters.

In a small population of say 100 with 50 females with an annual reproduction of 25 cubs (which is really high). If you harvest 10-15 and say 6 more die from other causes, that is almost your entire annual production. If you take into account the deaths from other things like old age, problem bears that are killed etc that makes it very unlikely the population could increase or even stay even and likely cause it to be quite unstable or decline. Of course population dynamics is much more complex than that basic example. There are also numerous other factors to consider.



Well the endangered species act isn't the greatest management tool around thats for sure. However, it does allow us to manage animals that would otherwise be extinct by the time a problem was even detected. There have been some good success stories using the ESA but often it's applied like a bandaid without addressing the real issues threatening the species.

I just hope I'm still alive when the grizz is delisted so I can hunt one hopefully in Idaho.

What do you do all day, Brutal? Sit around and read pamphlets and watch shows sponsored by the USFW and endangered species act that just tell you what they want you to hear? Both wyote and I have testified to the large number of grizzly bears here in Wyoming (remember we live in Wyoming and know all kinds of ranchers and hunters who live here and also say the same thing.... or rather know the same thing since its a fact), but you still seem to think you know more than us. You say the grizzly population as a whole doesnt have enough numbers. WE HAVE ALREADY TOLD YOU A NUMBER OF TIMES THAT THE BEARS ARE ABUNDANT THROUGHOUT THE STATE OF WYOMING! And if I recall correctly the main area targeted by the endangered species act to reintroduce the grizzlies was the Yellowstone area. The Yellowstone area is Wyoming. There are enough grizzlies to delist them now! From reading your posts, I would have to say you are one of these know-it-alls who are copying half of their posts out of tree hugger books and pamphlets. Growing up, my family always made a point of going up above Dubois, Wyoming to camp at Brooks Lake. Its a big campground, and it used to fill up by noon every Friday, but since the re-introduction of bears, the campground has been practicly deserted because there are so many bears now. Just in case you were wondering, Dubois is clear over on the other side of a mountain range from Meeteetse.

On a lighter note, nice posts wyote. You know what youre talking about and its nice to hear someone saying something about the bears that is not sugarcoated by the treehuggers, the feds, or the endangered species act lovers. Its frustrating to talk to people like Brutal about the situation we have with the wolves and bears here in Wyoming because they dont know how bad they are getting. They eat up every word the yuppie environmentalist throw at them and think that the bears and wolves are simply nice little creatures that are making Wyoming a nicer place, and that they dont have any negative effects on the ranchers, the elk herds, or local sportsmen. Thanks for backing up my allegations. Its nice to know there is a fellow Wyoming sportsman on here who hasnt been brain washed by the feds about the bears and wolves!

Brutal I too live in Wyoming, it gets really annoying to have to sit and deal with people who live outside of wyoming but believe they know the answer to our problems. Believe me the grizzlies are a big problem, every other day you hear about another guy who had a nasty encounter with a bear or wolf and it is scary. When i go up fishing around lander...which is about 2 hours from dubois, it ticks me off that i now need a pistol for protection because i dont know if im going to run into some dang grizzly while im up backpacking or camping. It takes the fun out of camping when you have to stick together and are always worried that you might just run into a bear. We used to go up to Dubois almost once a month then we kept hearing stories of friends of ours who were chased by a grizzly, and you know what is even worse about all this nonsense, those who carry a gun for protection and end up having to shoot one to save their life, get to go to countless crap too see whether or not it was self defense or whether they were just shooting it for the heck of it, i mean a dang near murder investigation, and these fed and easterners are telling us it might be mandatory to take pepper spray, ill shoot the dang thing with that crap when its dead. As you can tell in wyoming we feel very strongly about these grizzlies and i for one am sick of giving up my privelages so that these worthless animals can eat and sleep in peace, wyote and windriverhunter were right and i want a dang season opened up so we can get these things under control.

Well obviously all three of you are ignorant to anything even resembling science so I can't really expect you to understand the concepts at work.

But thats ok. I've noticed from working with people like you that you have trouble understanding or visualizing anything that is beyond the tiny world you call home. That is the problem you see. Your unable to put yourself in anyones shoes but your own. I'm not a tree hugger. God knows I've killed my share of animals and I'm proud of it. But to spout off like that with no ****ing clue what your talking about is shameful. I'm sorry but you guys aren't educated. I respect your opinion and I've tried to give you reasonable answers, but you still respond with the typical redneck **** even though I suspect you know better. The truth is out there all you have to do is look for yourseld and stop seeing the world in tunnel vision. God damn it's 3 am and I"m frickking drunk so I'm sorry I 'm not trying to start a fight but it frustrates me when I go to school and work my ass off for how many years and no one even fricking listens to me or gives a ****.

Brutal


Calm down man its like this I know your some sort of biologist and you must have a good educatoin.

However people like me and these guys in this thread if we see somthing
that is black with our own eyes nobody is going to tell us its white no matter what you are .