A wolves truce?!?
04-26-2004, 10:51 AM
#1
Typical Buck
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Cedar Valley Utah
Posts: 977
A wolves truce?!?
Ok wolves have been hotly debated. There are very different points of view, no doubt about it. BUT we are all sportsman trying to preserve our sport. ALSO wether for or against it wolves are here to stay like it or not.
With that being said as long as we are divided we give those who want to stop hunting ALL animals more ammo. I know what a few guys write on this board will have little to no effect on the big picture. But maybe if we can somewhat agree on what to do now that wolves are here maybe we can all have a little influence on our state and speak as one voice.
My truce is this. I agree and understand that wolves were put here against a lot of peoples will. I think the Gov should have listened to the people, I still believe in democracy even if the final vote isn't what I want. Here is my outlined plan:
1. Ranchers have the right to kill any wolf caught in the act of attacking livestock.
2. Wolf populations should be kept very low. Enough to have a substainable healthy population but not enough to have a significant effect on other species.
3. Control populations by hunting.
4. If hunting does not take popluations down to objectives emergency hunts should be placed and possibly trapping animals and re-locating them.
5. An area must be deemed a "wolf area" before wolves can exist there. Meaning if an area has too small of a prey popluation no wolves will be allowed to enter it. If they do they will be considered a nuisance and trapping will be done. If trapping is not effective within a certain time period, say two months, the animals will be shot.
6. Money to trap and manage wolf popluations should come from hunting tags. Most of the management work can be piggy-backed off of the work done for deer, elk and other species.
7. Areas will be managed ungulate species first then for the wolves.
What do think? Remember wolves are here to stay, nothing we can do about that so if you disagree then add your opinion for a better solution. Basically you can argue why wolves shouldn't be here but at this point your waisting your breath so lets come up with constructive solutions to the wolf problem.
With that being said as long as we are divided we give those who want to stop hunting ALL animals more ammo. I know what a few guys write on this board will have little to no effect on the big picture. But maybe if we can somewhat agree on what to do now that wolves are here maybe we can all have a little influence on our state and speak as one voice.
My truce is this. I agree and understand that wolves were put here against a lot of peoples will. I think the Gov should have listened to the people, I still believe in democracy even if the final vote isn't what I want. Here is my outlined plan:
1. Ranchers have the right to kill any wolf caught in the act of attacking livestock.
2. Wolf populations should be kept very low. Enough to have a substainable healthy population but not enough to have a significant effect on other species.
3. Control populations by hunting.
4. If hunting does not take popluations down to objectives emergency hunts should be placed and possibly trapping animals and re-locating them.
5. An area must be deemed a "wolf area" before wolves can exist there. Meaning if an area has too small of a prey popluation no wolves will be allowed to enter it. If they do they will be considered a nuisance and trapping will be done. If trapping is not effective within a certain time period, say two months, the animals will be shot.
6. Money to trap and manage wolf popluations should come from hunting tags. Most of the management work can be piggy-backed off of the work done for deer, elk and other species.
7. Areas will be managed ungulate species first then for the wolves.
What do think? Remember wolves are here to stay, nothing we can do about that so if you disagree then add your opinion for a better solution. Basically you can argue why wolves shouldn't be here but at this point your waisting your breath so lets come up with constructive solutions to the wolf problem.
04-26-2004, 12:55 PM
#3
Giant Nontypical
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location:
Posts: 6,471
RE: A wolves truce?!?
Noway and EKM I agree totally with both of you in this regard. Was watching some documentary yesterday about predation in National Parks and Yellowstone was featured. The researcher mentioned that in one study they were conducting they found 6 calf kills. It broke down to 2 by wolf 2 by Grizzly and 2 by Coyote. Calfs evidently are getting clobbered in that area. I couldn't finish watching the show because they showed a Grizzly taking down a Calf and my wife said enough.
04-26-2004, 09:31 PM
#5
Typical Buck
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location:
Posts: 549
RE: A wolves truce?!?
Good way to put i'drather be huntin,
When I first posted the original topic, I didn't think bringing in wolves was the right management tool for Colorado right now. Lol had no idea this was all in store.
I don't think anyone could argue with your statements.
When I first posted the original topic, I didn't think bringing in wolves was the right management tool for Colorado right now. Lol had no idea this was all in store.
I don't think anyone could argue with your statements.
04-27-2004, 07:36 AM
#6
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Elizabeth Colo. USA
Posts: 4,413
RE: A wolves truce?!?
I'd have to say that letting a rancher shoot a wolf that is "caught in the act" would need to read "any wolf caught on his property", because not too many ranchers spend 24/7 watching over thier herd and catching the wolf/wolves in the act is not likely, more than likely finding the after mathwhen the wolves have been there and done that and moved on!
And second, do we all really think that hunting them will be a viable means of controling thier numbers. Wolves will not be easy to find let alone hunt with much success!
And second, do we all really think that hunting them will be a viable means of controling thier numbers. Wolves will not be easy to find let alone hunt with much success!
04-27-2004, 07:53 AM
#7
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Rocky Mountains, Colorado
Posts: 1,964
RE: A wolves truce?!?
Howler,
I agree with you. What, we're going to make the rancher stand over his herd like a shepperd 24/7 with a night vision scoped rifle and just guard them while neglecting sleep and all the other things it takes to keep a spread going (putting up hay, feeding, calving, weaning, branding, and yes even going to town)? How can he make a living? Have people from this forum come out and stand guard pro bono? I don't think so.
That is why I mentioned earlier:
"One proposed amendment: 3. Populations to be controlled by whatever means necessary (not just hunting). "
If it takes using the old "baited-pull rag-cyanide blast in the face" tools of the past to control them so be it ---- WHATEVER it takes. As mentioned earlier, on the "last go round" hunting alone did not prove particularly fruitful.
The old guy in Hinton, Alberta has to be just rolling on the ground by now!
EKM
I agree with you. What, we're going to make the rancher stand over his herd like a shepperd 24/7 with a night vision scoped rifle and just guard them while neglecting sleep and all the other things it takes to keep a spread going (putting up hay, feeding, calving, weaning, branding, and yes even going to town)? How can he make a living? Have people from this forum come out and stand guard pro bono? I don't think so.
That is why I mentioned earlier:
"One proposed amendment: 3. Populations to be controlled by whatever means necessary (not just hunting). "
If it takes using the old "baited-pull rag-cyanide blast in the face" tools of the past to control them so be it ---- WHATEVER it takes. As mentioned earlier, on the "last go round" hunting alone did not prove particularly fruitful.
The old guy in Hinton, Alberta has to be just rolling on the ground by now!
EKM
04-27-2004, 08:01 AM
#8
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Port Hope Ontario Canada
Posts: 493
RE: A wolves truce?!?
This post already is starting to smell of "the lets kill`em all". Elkcampmaster why not just go back to the days of poison and get rid of all hawks, eagles bears, cougars and any other animal that eats carrion. And you guys call yourselves sportsman, I`m ashamed to be part of the same group as you. I am forever grateful that not all hunters feel like elkmaster or I`d be hanging up the gun and joining the other side. Anyone who can even suggest poison......I can`t express what that shows about their morals.
04-27-2004, 09:30 AM
#9
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Rocky Mountains, Colorado
Posts: 1,964
RE: A wolves truce?!?
Turkman, out of lack of better usable words ---- Merry Christmas!
There you go, roaring off half cocked into left field on a snippet and an assumption, with emotions a raging and tongue a flying without considering the whole context of what someone is trying to discuss, and then drawing all number of conclusions about person's belief systems, character, or ethics without knowing squat -- Happy New Years too.
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This “truce thread” was posted and sat pretty calm and the underlying lynch pin that let the parties semi-agree was CONTROL of wolf numbers THAT WOULD WORK. As originally stated it was “control by hunting”. Then the question was raised, “what if control by hunting don’t do it?”
The sad fact is that we have this reintroduction hoisted upon us and we are going to have to live with the consequences without knowing what those consequences are ultimately going to be because the whole thing hasn’t played out yet – everyone is theorizing on what they THINK will happen. Hardly any one in this generation has dealt first hand with the ins and outs of wolf control on a huge, huge, huge area basis with so many conflicting interests (of a now settled territory) and now with so many Federal rules limiting getting anything done.
Hey, if the USFG wardens can go out and control the wolves by simply scolding them and telling them to behave AND IT WORKS then that is wonderful, no further action needed.
If the government powers that be have to shoot a few or trap a few (take them back to Alberta?) to control them AND IT WORKS, then hey that is super, no further action needed.
If it gets a little tougher and they create wolf hunting seasons AND IT WORKS hey that is just great, no further action needed.
If it gets a little tougher yet and they declare open season on wolves with a limit of 10 per hunter (like they did in Northern BC and Alaska [See “good news for BC moose] AND IT WORKS, okay. [But you have to admit at that kind of “harvest rate”, someone upstream made a serious miscalculation on this wolf re-introduction thing.]
If the hunters are killing them as fast as they can and the government has spent all the money, time, manpower, and will power they can muster trying to control them and IT STILL AIN’T CONTROLLING THEM, what do we do then? Ignore it and go find a new enviro cause to get excited about? Hopefully one that will have a happier ending? Maybe not ever even admitting there was a mistake made? Simply turn our back on it, hunker down in our nice urban/suburban setting (for most of us) and let those who live on the rural margin of our society endure it (nothing new there).
If it comes to THAT POINT, THEN that is when I say “whatever it takes by whatever means”. If you live long enough you’ll experience that in spite of man’s supposed intelligence, it is not very often his plans go just right and in fact sometimes it just ends up being a total colossal cluster %$#!.
When that happens you’ve got to get the knot out of your panties, step forward and FIX IT, dirty and disgusting as that may be!
None of us know how this will play out, especially with the “wild card” of the Federal Government thrown in. So, I suggest they START with the USFG trying the “scold the wolves” step first and then move on up the ladder --- what ever it takes. And if wolves don't respond to the control measures we hope will work, and the necessary control measures end up getting towards the tough and ruthless side (high tech, selective, poison/explosive/projectile wolf killing devices, etc.), then no wimping out my friends --- it was an underestimation/mistake and at that point, it is time to put the fix on it.
Good Luck and Good Hunting,
EKM
There you go, roaring off half cocked into left field on a snippet and an assumption, with emotions a raging and tongue a flying without considering the whole context of what someone is trying to discuss, and then drawing all number of conclusions about person's belief systems, character, or ethics without knowing squat -- Happy New Years too.
------------------------------------
This “truce thread” was posted and sat pretty calm and the underlying lynch pin that let the parties semi-agree was CONTROL of wolf numbers THAT WOULD WORK. As originally stated it was “control by hunting”. Then the question was raised, “what if control by hunting don’t do it?”
The sad fact is that we have this reintroduction hoisted upon us and we are going to have to live with the consequences without knowing what those consequences are ultimately going to be because the whole thing hasn’t played out yet – everyone is theorizing on what they THINK will happen. Hardly any one in this generation has dealt first hand with the ins and outs of wolf control on a huge, huge, huge area basis with so many conflicting interests (of a now settled territory) and now with so many Federal rules limiting getting anything done.
Hey, if the USFG wardens can go out and control the wolves by simply scolding them and telling them to behave AND IT WORKS then that is wonderful, no further action needed.
If the government powers that be have to shoot a few or trap a few (take them back to Alberta?) to control them AND IT WORKS, then hey that is super, no further action needed.
If it gets a little tougher and they create wolf hunting seasons AND IT WORKS hey that is just great, no further action needed.
If it gets a little tougher yet and they declare open season on wolves with a limit of 10 per hunter (like they did in Northern BC and Alaska [See “good news for BC moose] AND IT WORKS, okay. [But you have to admit at that kind of “harvest rate”, someone upstream made a serious miscalculation on this wolf re-introduction thing.]
If the hunters are killing them as fast as they can and the government has spent all the money, time, manpower, and will power they can muster trying to control them and IT STILL AIN’T CONTROLLING THEM, what do we do then? Ignore it and go find a new enviro cause to get excited about? Hopefully one that will have a happier ending? Maybe not ever even admitting there was a mistake made? Simply turn our back on it, hunker down in our nice urban/suburban setting (for most of us) and let those who live on the rural margin of our society endure it (nothing new there).
If it comes to THAT POINT, THEN that is when I say “whatever it takes by whatever means”. If you live long enough you’ll experience that in spite of man’s supposed intelligence, it is not very often his plans go just right and in fact sometimes it just ends up being a total colossal cluster %$#!.
When that happens you’ve got to get the knot out of your panties, step forward and FIX IT, dirty and disgusting as that may be!
None of us know how this will play out, especially with the “wild card” of the Federal Government thrown in. So, I suggest they START with the USFG trying the “scold the wolves” step first and then move on up the ladder --- what ever it takes. And if wolves don't respond to the control measures we hope will work, and the necessary control measures end up getting towards the tough and ruthless side (high tech, selective, poison/explosive/projectile wolf killing devices, etc.), then no wimping out my friends --- it was an underestimation/mistake and at that point, it is time to put the fix on it.
Good Luck and Good Hunting,
EKM
