for all you wolf lovers
04-21-2004, 01:09 AM
#11
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Redcliff,AB.,CAN
Posts: 500
RE: for all you wolf lovers
EKM
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as were the buffalo......the great plains grizzly is extinct.....how much more must be destroyed to make it a "perfect" world for the greedy hunters and farmers??
As for giving everything back to the indians, I don't even see where thats been brought up by anyone here.....poor analogy.BUT, at least they were able to live in harmony with their surroundings without bringing wildlife to to brink of extinction, unlike the modern american.
It looks to me like most of you wolf haters just simply don't like a little "natural" competition.Hmmmm..... maybe as an avid fisherman I should start weeding out some of the "competition"......may be I'll start with a few bald eagles
[/quote]
What is sauce for the goose should be sauce for the gander....
Indians and wolves --- both were nearly exterminated by our government.....
Indians and wolves --- both were nearly exterminated by our government.....
As for giving everything back to the indians, I don't even see where thats been brought up by anyone here.....poor analogy.BUT, at least they were able to live in harmony with their surroundings without bringing wildlife to to brink of extinction, unlike the modern american.
It looks to me like most of you wolf haters just simply don't like a little "natural" competition.Hmmmm..... maybe as an avid fisherman I should start weeding out some of the "competition"......may be I'll start with a few bald eagles
04-21-2004, 06:46 AM
#12
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Rocky Mountains, Colorado
Posts: 1,964
RE: for all you wolf lovers
It is always a "poor analogy" when it doesn't support one's own viewpoint.
"How much more must be attempted to be "put back as it once was" to make it a "perfect" world to relieve the conscious of greenies/envios/romantics?
Kinda helps make my point, thanks. At least my way we all pay equally for the "fix", instead of fingering the guy living out at the rural margin of our society.
That, of course, is a call that is up to you to make. Are you willing to personally "pay the potential price" for that course of action?
Where does it all end? Better check the deed and the mortgage on the old homestead.
EKM
how much more must be destroyed to make it a "perfect" world for the greedy hunters and farmers??
....at least they were able to live in harmony with their surroundings without bringing wildlife to to brink of extinction, unlike the modern american.
....may be I'll start with a few bald eagles
Where does it all end? Better check the deed and the mortgage on the old homestead.
EKM
04-21-2004, 07:24 AM
#13
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location:
Posts: 1,813
RE: for all you wolf lovers
I likved in Alaska a long time, and i'm wondering who else here, has actually seen wolves in action??? AND, i'm not talking about those nearly hand fed yellowstone variety!!!
I "personally" saw wolves pull down a pregnant cow moose, rip her belly open and pull out the unborn calf. Once that was done, they ate most of the calf, and moved off. THE COW WAS NOT DEAD, but lay there still bleeding to death!!!! Isolated instance? I think NOT, as my friends that ALSO spent huge amounts of time in the bush, had similar stories to tell!!! Do you supose these were "planted" wolves????????????
Wolves DO kill for sport!!! Anyone who says differently needs to spend more time out in the Alaskan bush, and see for themselves!!!
When we was trimming our wolf herd down, all the wolf lovers were crying like he**, so the govenor offered to give anyone who wanted the wolves all they wanted, to "let loose" in THERE neighborhood, and there were NO takers!!! What a surprise!!!!!!!!!! I'd just love to turn about 25 of them loose near a big city where the do gooders all "love them"!!!!!
I NEVER could understand how so many do gooders don't like bears, but think wolves are kinda like there pet poodle!!!! I've spent a huge amounts of time around both, and personally, i'd take my chances with the bear anyday!!!
I actually saw a person in a California zoo, pet a wolf, and tell the people standing there, "see wolves don't eat people!!!" I was in the crowd, and asked her if she had ever spent any time in the bush with "wild wolves", I also asked her if she would do that with 5 WILD wolves after not feeding them for a couple weeks!!! She didn't answer me, and i thought i was going to get thrown out of the place!
Drilling Man
I "personally" saw wolves pull down a pregnant cow moose, rip her belly open and pull out the unborn calf. Once that was done, they ate most of the calf, and moved off. THE COW WAS NOT DEAD, but lay there still bleeding to death!!!! Isolated instance? I think NOT, as my friends that ALSO spent huge amounts of time in the bush, had similar stories to tell!!! Do you supose these were "planted" wolves????????????
Wolves DO kill for sport!!! Anyone who says differently needs to spend more time out in the Alaskan bush, and see for themselves!!!
When we was trimming our wolf herd down, all the wolf lovers were crying like he**, so the govenor offered to give anyone who wanted the wolves all they wanted, to "let loose" in THERE neighborhood, and there were NO takers!!! What a surprise!!!!!!!!!! I'd just love to turn about 25 of them loose near a big city where the do gooders all "love them"!!!!!
I NEVER could understand how so many do gooders don't like bears, but think wolves are kinda like there pet poodle!!!! I've spent a huge amounts of time around both, and personally, i'd take my chances with the bear anyday!!!
I actually saw a person in a California zoo, pet a wolf, and tell the people standing there, "see wolves don't eat people!!!" I was in the crowd, and asked her if she had ever spent any time in the bush with "wild wolves", I also asked her if she would do that with 5 WILD wolves after not feeding them for a couple weeks!!! She didn't answer me, and i thought i was going to get thrown out of the place!
Drilling Man
04-21-2004, 08:32 AM
#14
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: meridian idaho USA
Posts: 429
RE: for all you wolf lovers
If you are an elk hunter wolves are not your friend.
I hunt iun Idaho where there is a pack of about 15 wolves living right in the middle of where we used to hunt elk.
There are too many wolves with no fear of man in Idaho.
They hang around our camps at night and harrass peoples live stock.
When we get up in the morning there are wolf tracks sometimes within 20 yards of our camp.
When we walk to our hunting areas we see fresh wolf tracks on the trails.
We hear them howling during the day.
We have seen them running in the meadow by our camp within 200 yards of us without a fear in the world.
The areas where we used to hunt elk have no elk now, they have all been pushed down into the steep rocky canyons. There are far less cow elk now and we have seen herds of bulls (5 or 6) running together during prime rut with no cows. Bulls with cows have 2 or 3 now , before the wolves they would have 10 to 15.
If you see elk you better go after them now because they will not be there tomorrow, all you will find is wolf tracks. The wolves keep them constantly moving.
On the winter ranges these wolves with no fear of man camp out in prime habitat and eat all the elk they can kill. There is nothing to keep them away.
A friend of mine while backpacking last year was followed and harrassed by a pack of wolves last year to the point he finally turned around and left not knowing what was going to happen it wasn't worth the risk.
These animals are not your family pet.
When they introduced the wolves here they talked about having maybe 100 wolves in Idaho. There are well over 400 officially and up to 600 unoffically in Idaho right now, with no hope of ever being able to control their numbers in sight.
This is going to get much worse before it gets better.
I hunt iun Idaho where there is a pack of about 15 wolves living right in the middle of where we used to hunt elk.
There are too many wolves with no fear of man in Idaho.
They hang around our camps at night and harrass peoples live stock.
When we get up in the morning there are wolf tracks sometimes within 20 yards of our camp.
When we walk to our hunting areas we see fresh wolf tracks on the trails.
We hear them howling during the day.
We have seen them running in the meadow by our camp within 200 yards of us without a fear in the world.
The areas where we used to hunt elk have no elk now, they have all been pushed down into the steep rocky canyons. There are far less cow elk now and we have seen herds of bulls (5 or 6) running together during prime rut with no cows. Bulls with cows have 2 or 3 now , before the wolves they would have 10 to 15.
If you see elk you better go after them now because they will not be there tomorrow, all you will find is wolf tracks. The wolves keep them constantly moving.
On the winter ranges these wolves with no fear of man camp out in prime habitat and eat all the elk they can kill. There is nothing to keep them away.
A friend of mine while backpacking last year was followed and harrassed by a pack of wolves last year to the point he finally turned around and left not knowing what was going to happen it wasn't worth the risk.
These animals are not your family pet.
When they introduced the wolves here they talked about having maybe 100 wolves in Idaho. There are well over 400 officially and up to 600 unoffically in Idaho right now, with no hope of ever being able to control their numbers in sight.
This is going to get much worse before it gets better.
04-21-2004, 11:32 AM
#15
Typical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Cedar Valley Utah
Posts: 977
RE: for all you wolf lovers
EKM even though the same thing happened to the Native Americans as did the wolves you can't mix apples and oranges. One is human politics and the other is wild animals. The whole point of wolf re-introduction is simply conserving wild animals in wild places. Native Americans are human and are subject to laws and society. Since this is a big game forum I'll leave my opinion out of it but yes it is a poor analogy.
Everyone keeps saying how wolves sport kill and leave animals after eating a small portion. I read an article in National Geographic and wolves do indeed return to a kill. Sometimes a bear will get there first but the basic point is the meat does not get wasted and nature finds its balance. In other words in the big picture nothing gets wasted and the predators eat only what they need to substain. Wolves are opportunistic hunters. Meaning if given the chance they kill more than they can eat in one sitting BUT THEY DO RETURN. Some of you have witnessed part of this process but because you didn't see it through you didn't realize what you were really seeing. Like BigBulls pointed out a lot of these wolves were probably run off and not given the chance to finish the process in the above examples.
The average wolf can only eat 15-20 lbs in one sitting if it is on an empty stomach. So naturally if a pack of 10 kills 2 elk thats about 500 lbs of meat but those wolves will not even be able to eat one entire elk(200lbs max). Wolves only have a kill rate of 8%, meaning 92% of the time they strike out. So when they can kill more than one animal they do. But they'll come back and feed.
These facts I obtained from National Geographic. If you disagree, take it up with them.
Noway, I agree that wolves should not be allowed to roam free without fear of man and unbounded. I say delist them and lets hunt them. Within controlled amounts of course. Set a popluation objective and tags should be issued to meet that.
Everyone keeps saying how wolves sport kill and leave animals after eating a small portion. I read an article in National Geographic and wolves do indeed return to a kill. Sometimes a bear will get there first but the basic point is the meat does not get wasted and nature finds its balance. In other words in the big picture nothing gets wasted and the predators eat only what they need to substain. Wolves are opportunistic hunters. Meaning if given the chance they kill more than they can eat in one sitting BUT THEY DO RETURN. Some of you have witnessed part of this process but because you didn't see it through you didn't realize what you were really seeing. Like BigBulls pointed out a lot of these wolves were probably run off and not given the chance to finish the process in the above examples.
The average wolf can only eat 15-20 lbs in one sitting if it is on an empty stomach. So naturally if a pack of 10 kills 2 elk thats about 500 lbs of meat but those wolves will not even be able to eat one entire elk(200lbs max). Wolves only have a kill rate of 8%, meaning 92% of the time they strike out. So when they can kill more than one animal they do. But they'll come back and feed.
These facts I obtained from National Geographic. If you disagree, take it up with them.
Noway, I agree that wolves should not be allowed to roam free without fear of man and unbounded. I say delist them and lets hunt them. Within controlled amounts of course. Set a popluation objective and tags should be issued to meet that.
04-21-2004, 11:44 AM
#16
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Rocky Mountains, Colorado
Posts: 1,964
RE: for all you wolf lovers
Wolves and Indians may be different as far as specie, but the central issue of who is going to REALLY pay to "make things right" is central to each case. In the case of wolves, we'll add a nickel to each of our tax bills but let the effective brunt of the action be taken by those at the rural margin of our society since they don't have the political clout to fight back and it is no skin off (most) our backs. In the case of the Indians, well gee THAT could come around and bite each and everyone of us HARD --- we better not go there --- that is different --- lets table that one.
If you believe that the re-introduction of wolves and the economic impacts it will have on folks livelihoods and state's DOW revenues will not end up involving human politics, then I encourage you to reconsider.
I always did like National Geographic, always left me with that nice, tidy, no loose ends, enlightened outlook --- all in a ten minute read too. Good stuff, seldom in depth, but good stuff.
EKM
If you believe that the re-introduction of wolves and the economic impacts it will have on folks livelihoods and state's DOW revenues will not end up involving human politics, then I encourage you to reconsider.
I always did like National Geographic, always left me with that nice, tidy, no loose ends, enlightened outlook --- all in a ten minute read too. Good stuff, seldom in depth, but good stuff.
EKM
04-21-2004, 11:54 AM
#17
Typical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Cedar Valley Utah
Posts: 977
RE: for all you wolf lovers
ORIGINAL: ELKampMaster
If you believe that the re-introduction of wolves and the economic impacts it will have on folks livelihoods and state's DOW revenues will not end up involving human politics, then I believe you may be mistaken.
If you believe that the re-introduction of wolves and the economic impacts it will have on folks livelihoods and state's DOW revenues will not end up involving human politics, then I believe you may be mistaken.
04-21-2004, 12:00 PM
#18
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Rocky Mountains, Colorado
Posts: 1,964
RE: for all you wolf lovers
the subject of wolves is an economic issue albeit a minor one.
Government meetings where they let you stand up and have your say are merely a means of appeasing the public and following the process.... then they do what they "think is best" anyway.
DOW revenues will be affected. Check the thread "Good News For BC Moose".
04-21-2004, 12:30 PM
#19
Typical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Cedar Valley Utah
Posts: 977
RE: for all you wolf lovers
ORIGINAL: ELKampMaster
In the case of the Indians, well gee THAT could come around and bite each and everyone of us HARD --- we better not go there --- that is different --- lets table that one.
In the case of the Indians, well gee THAT could come around and bite each and everyone of us HARD --- we better not go there --- that is different --- lets table that one.
Every issue is major to someone however the economic issue of wolves to the US as a whole is a minor one.
There are countless privately funded organizations that reimburse ranchers for livestock lost to wolves.
04-21-2004, 12:55 PM
#20
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Rocky Mountains, Colorado
Posts: 1,964
RE: for all you wolf lovers
Superb selectivity,
Excellent clean up and dusting skills.
Everything neatly swept under the rug.
Why, there are no issues to this wolf thing at all.....
You are too valuable asset to be left out of such a cause.
When will you be going to work for the USF&G?
You are already trained.
Good Luck In Your Endeavour,
EKM
Excellent clean up and dusting skills.
Everything neatly swept under the rug.
Why, there are no issues to this wolf thing at all.....
You are too valuable asset to be left out of such a cause.
When will you be going to work for the USF&G?
You are already trained.
Good Luck In Your Endeavour,
EKM