High fenced trophies?
 

Do you think high fenced tropies should be allowed in record books, I know some won't allow it but some do?
If you do think so how much acreage would be consider ethical for fair chase, feeders, or canned trophies?

I say you could buy your trophie maybe one that would go world record class. Just by raising the animals like cattle in pens pumped full minerals and genentic selection. I would vote unsportsman like on this one. Besides it's turning hunting into farming, and causing open to public ranches to turn to the money game. Many hunters I know will not support high fenced hunting and wouldn't mind seeing it banned, but that gives the peta people a foothold on hunting rights across the board.

RE: High fenced trophies?
 

First, I don't think that any animals that are shot in an enclosure should be allowed in the record books. I don't care about people hunting or whatever some of you want to call it behind fences.

I think that the size of an enclosure being "sporting" would depend on what type of terrain that your dealing with. Places that I hunt here in Colorado, you would need a pretty big swath of land, thousands of acres, my property back in Wisconsin is 80 acres and if you fenced that all in you could still go weeks without seeing a deer on it (35 acres is inaccessable swamp).

I get the whole arguement about enclosures turning american hunting into what they have in Europe, and it makes me sick, but I will never stand by and let someone tell a landowner what they can do with there land (within reason of course)

RE: High fenced trophies?
 

no way, they do not belong in a record book! yes, it may take a bit to find them on fenced in property, but it is just a number's game behind fences, how much can you afford for an animal. heck, my bosses have been going to texas and shooting deer in fences, spending $5000+ 2 years in a row, before mounting. they have brought back some nice deer, but i am more proud of the seven point that had put a lot of hours into and impressed by it, than their deer with 24" spread racks. but, that isn't to say that perhaps their own book shouldn't be started, considering how many fenced in areas there are now.

RE: High fenced trophies?
 

No more a trophy than a store bought mount.

RE: High fenced trophies?
 

I've got an opinion on this ....

I think any place, no matter how large the acreage where you can "buy" an animal is not hunting. Many of these places have price lists where the cost is in relation to the size of the animal .. and while it may be for some people .. the mere thought turns my stomach. I personallly have a serious issue with outfits that hunt on private ranches, even without high fences that charge by the animal's size ... because in my mind it is one thing to pay for the opportunity to hunt and do everything in your power to take a large animal, and a very ugly alternative to turn around and charge additionaly what your skill or luck has allowed you to take. In my mind that eqautes to paying for the animal you killed .. and in my mind that is not true hunting. I believe there is a world of difference between paying for the opportunity to hunt and paying for a specific animal.

That being said, now.. "Record Books". Record Books are kept by dozens of different organizations and anyone who cares to collect, verify and then publish those results both on-line or in print can, in my opinion, make any rules they care to have concerning animals they include. If all the high fenced guys want to have a record book (and they have several) where they can submit their names and total inches to show their friends and feel like true hunters, so be it. The regard I hold for those people doesn't change 1 bit because their names appear in a book .. and frankly I'm 100% positive they don't care what I think about them or their purchased mounts.

I can say that I have never once looked at an animal and thought, "HOLY CRAP .. that buck will get me into the top 1/2 of (insert Book title of choice)"
and I like to think the guys I hunt with don't give a heck less either. I have been guilty during the long cold days and nights of winter of "measuring" an animal to get an idea of where he would compare with all the animals we hear about on a site like this .. but hey .. I'm human!

RE: High fenced trophies?
 

no way they should be allowed in the books.....no challenge in that and its not even hunting. I would compare it to just goin out to the pasture and slaughtering a beef. Not to difficult to shoot a record book elk inside a 7ft page wire fence. The books are meant for hunters not guys with too much money that don't know how to hunt. Hunt hard or go home.......

RE: High fenced trophies?
 

I would go one further. I would not allow any trophy if the animal was taken from leased land! I think paying for hunting rights on a property fenced or not is wrong, and has led us to where we are now. Trophys for who ever has the most money. You hear a lot of talk about QDM where the deer herds are thriving . QDM is all about big $ not big bucks. IMHO.

RE: High fenced trophies?
 

Threads like this make me realize why our hunting heritage will be lost one day. Not from bunny huggers or peta freaks, but by our own hand

RE: High fenced trophies?
 

I do not think High fence animals should be in the record books. If someone wants to buy a monster trophy? They can buy a re-production of horns like the Milo Hanson buck and have there own mount made.

RE: High fenced trophies?
 

High fenced trophy's belong in there own book, my take. Is there a difference's between public land, private land, private land posted, leased land and high fence hunting land. I think so, you ? Should they all have there own record books ?
I think game farms and high fenced hunting have a place, in hunting.
If you got to have a trophy, have the money, then go buy one. It's not
my place to say No You shouldn't do that ! In Vermont, a Elk farm, wanted to offer limited hunts on trophy bull's. A bunch of people went nuts and last I knew that farm couldn't offer hunts. Guess what ? Those still Elk died, shot in head, in a stall at a slaughter house or had there throats cut wide open. I think it would of been nice if the Elk could of died in a hunting setting, and made someone very happy, and the animal was remembered.

RE: High fenced trophies?
 

Funny thing Jorgy - I read this and think that hunters may actually have a chance to survive. We gain nothing by tolerating high fenced slaughter and calling it hunting. Hunter is a subset of conservationist in my mind. Nothing conservation minded about shooting penned animals. These places spread diseases and make real conservationist/hunters look bad in the eyes of the 80% of the population that does not hunt but holds our future in their hands. Montana and Wyoming got it right. The rest of us should demand the same.

RE: High fenced trophies?
 

If it is high-fenced it is not a record book animal. It likely would not have developed such an amazing set of headgear had it not been in a high fence. It is not hunting, plain and simple!

RE: High fenced trophies?
 

Yep, that is the same basic reasoning that many sportsman have used when they vote on state referendums to ban other forms of hunting too. If you worry about what 80% of people think then maybe you shouldn't be hunting in the first place. It upsets people when they see dead animals.

RE: High fenced trophies?
 

I would like to add my thoughts as to private land animals as well.

I think there should be seperate catergories for public and private land bucks/bulls. If you look at the stats you will see that 90% of all the trophies in the books are private land animals. This puts those public land hunters such as me at a major disadvantage. I would rather take a 170 class mulie on public land than a 260 class deer on private, wouldn't you?

RE: High fenced trophies?
 

No. But I would take more pride in a hunt that was hard and tested me and my abilities, not a get out of truck and shoot that deer kind of hunt.

RE: High fenced trophies?
 

Who cares about the record book?
Maybe that is the problem. Maybe if there were no record books things would change.
Or if there was a record book but the hunters names were not listed. It is supposed to honor the animal right? I think it may just be ego talking when we start arguing over who's animal should or shouldn't qualify for the record books.

Hunting is a sport for each person to enjoy in their own way within their means.
We are hunters, animals are being killed no matter how you go about it.
This is just my opinion.

RE: High fenced trophies?
 

noway-with that argument you would be able to say that by hitting a deer with your car, you are hunting. an animal is getting killed, right?

Wrong, hunting in my book and a lot of other's is a fair-chase sport. you obey the law to hopefully shoot/shoot at an amazing god-given animal that you worked for. It is not just killing some animal no matter how you do it.

RE: High fenced trophies?
 

I too believe that hunting an enclosed animal is a degrading situation for REAL HUNTERS. It shouldn't even be allowed. There is no way I would even have a thought about hunting an animal that you can't call wild. I hunt only public land and that is all I will ever hunt. Heck maybe noway is right. If there were no record books would people be so worried about HOW BIG the animal is, probably not. Personally I shoot pretty much the first thing that comes by me and presents the shot I am looking for. JMHO

RE: High fenced trophies?
 

If you want to kill a pet!!!! Kill you cat. Dont believe in it.

RE: High fenced trophies?
 

Pope/Young requirements states the it has to be fair chase, thats the rules I go by. Bobby

RE: High fenced trophies?
 

I think that as long as it's legal in your state to "hunt" by the means you are using go for it. The word hunting has different meanings to different people.

Is sitting over bait ie. a feeder or food plot hunting?
Is running bearwith dogs hunting?
Is having long range gear such as 1000 yard bench guns/rest and shooting deer at 800-2000 yards hunting?
Having 16,000 acres under high fence with a biologest and strict deer managment considered hunting?
Does owning 10 acres next to the city park and taking deer off of it count as hunting?
Using the lastest greatest bow with 85% let-off when a stick bow would work?
Using a super magnum with a 32X scope when a open sighted 30-30 would do?

Where is the line drawn? Who is to say.

I think there should be different catagories for fenced and open land. For the fenced properties there should be acrerage allowances. Dont put the 300 acre farm in with the 21,000 acre place.

Just my thoughts, God created us all different...doubleA

RE: High fenced trophies?
 

double a, what the difference between hunting 300 fenced arce's or 21,000
your still shooting the animals by the feeders...right ?
Most game farms buy breeding stock ( big buck genes).... I know of one place in Saskatchewan that buy's a 170 class buck for 5 grand, lets It breed as many does as possible, then they sell's a trophy hunt, the hunter comes in pay's 4K kill's the buck, has no idea, it came from a game farm. That 170 class farm deer is harvested why because there was good chance it wouldn't know how to make it through the winter. So the outfitter got 170 class genes on his property all for 1k. Good deal hugh ?.....every few years same thing.

RE: High fenced trophies?
 

It's much easier to hunt 300 acres than 21000. On 300 acres (which is slightly less than 1/2 squre mile) the odds of seeing a deer is much greaqter that the bigger parcel. Hence it would be harder to hunt the bigger place .

An example might be......if you had 1 feeder and 1 deer on 300 acres of high fenced land, would the chance of finding it there be the same as finding the same deer on the 32 square miles of the 21000 acres.

I do realize the numbers are extreme but here in Texas where 95 % of the land is privately owned , high fencing is a big debate. You either own land, know someone who does or lease property if you want to hunt.They prices here are out of sight, with the price of cattle at a nearly all time low, ranchers have taken up on deer management and now make as much if not more on whitetail hunting. There are enough wealthy people here and abroad to keep the best ranches booked up for years.
I do agree that's it's a sad day when the regular joe has to work 2 months out of the year to pay for the thing he loves. That's what deer hunting here in Texas has become.

by the way, on some places, that $4000 will get you a management 150BC 8 pt

doubleA

RE: High fenced trophies?
 

I'd be happy if we did away with ANY record book. Trophies are your own, plain and simple. If everyone else wants to run around trying to impress one another, that's fine for them but I won't be a part. I meet too many guys who, it seems, relate the size of the rack to the size of something else. I say, while everone else is trying to one-up each other, I'll be out hunting.

RE: High fenced trophies?
 

hey little magnum, they are offering hunts for the elk now, he just is doing it at a different farm, couple of towns over, for upwards of $2500+. plus, i heard they do it on his farm in N.H.

RE: High fenced trophies?
 

I'm guessing that you live somewhere in the east because that is a pretty ignorant statement. You can't compare "fenced in" areas by land mass. Size isn't as important as terrain.

RE: High fenced trophies?
 

Like one of the previous posters pointed out.
What is the difference between hunting a 5000 acre fenced area or a 10,000 acre unfenced one if all you are doing is sitting by a food plot or a feed site.
No difference.

RE: High fenced trophies?
 

These animals should not be placed in record books. You may as well just call it shooting cause it is not hunting. I have a tree hugger in the office next to mine and I recently heard her go into a dissertation about seeing a billboard along the highway advertising a "trophy elk hunt" at the next exit. Her views of animal rights and hunting perplex me because they are unnatural but billboards and things like that sure give the antis ammunition (irony intended).

RE: High fenced trophies?
 

Jorgy, if you read my post real carefully I made 2 hints on where I am from;) Let me give you a little hint;) it has a little over 261,000 square miles of fairly flat terrain and is nicknamed the Lone Star State. ;)
That's an ignorant statement stating that Easterners would think that way[&:]

I do admit that terrain does have an effect, I wouldnt say more than size though. It's a toss up, merly opinions. It would depend on where you live and hunt. Let me say this real s l o w....here in TeXaS the country is relatively flat and the places are large and private.



we are just going to have to agree to disagree on this one.... doubleA

RE: High fenced trophies?
 

We butchered a hog on the farm once and I guess I could have mounted it and it probably would have been a trophy too.

RE: High fenced trophies?
 

I don't know much about the record books and really couldn't care less. However it has some meaning to other hunters. I have not one thing in the world against high fence hunting. I have never done it and unless I win a lottery, I quess I never will. This said, I don't think any Game farm or high fence animal shoul be allowed in the books unless there is a seperate set of books for them. Even then the record sholud go to the outfit that raised them not the guy who killed it. Sort of a stock show prize. You can call high fence hunting a harvest ,a meat gathering trip or whatever you choose and anyone who doesn't like it should avoid it at all cost and leave anyone who wants to do it alone. If I want to and can afford to go pop a year supply of buffalo meat at one of the buffalo hunt ranches then I will do it and feel no shame whatsoever. What would I call that trip? A Meat Harvest that I did myself.

RE: High fenced trophies?
 

Kill a cow elk in one million acres of untamed wilderness and you got yourself a trophy.

RE: High fenced trophies?
 

Nice Elkcrazy! That is a true trophy!

RE: High fenced trophies?
 

My opinion:
Open to the public land only. If you have no fence on your 1000 acre property and you have a food plot in the middle your growing deer.
If your hunting it yourself or selling the rights to a hunter you have an unfair advantage that the rest don't have.
A book animal should be one all has access to.PERIOD![:o]

RE: High fenced trophies?
 

Jorgy quoted.... J3K2c1....suppose you took that same cow elk, high fenced that million acres of wilderness and then hunted her down and havested her....would it still be a trophy or a canned hunt?

Bob that works fine with states that have plenty of public/goverment owned to access, what about the states that dont?

doubleA

RE: High fenced trophies?
 

DoubleA:
Don't want to get to deep here and this is just MY opinion. In those area's where you have little or no puplic land.....You have no more honest trophy's in my opinion.
I know we could get into the debate about the square mile of public in the middle of low fenced private.
Times are changing and so should the criteria for the honest (WILD) trophy.
I don't know......... When I think of a trophy book animal I picture a guy out in the public woods scouting and hunting hard trying to get that monster the community has been trying to harvest for years.
Not the guy who waits for hunting season to drive his ATV to his heated stand in the middle of his food plot.
I don't put much stock in record books anyway. I use them as a tool for genetics in a certain area that has lots of puplic land. Which as you stated is a shrinking commodity.
Just my opinions of course and we could devote a whole site to the issue.[:-]

RE: High fenced trophies?
 

In response to doubleA
I would still consider that a canned hunt. for the simple reason of in a high-fenced ranch, they put you in a spot that they know that the elk/whatever animal that your hunting crosses near regularly. It is in no way the same type of hunt. I used hunt in there only for a lack of a better word to combine the two, so instead maybe harvest or killing.

If it was for a cow elk purely for the meat of the animal, I would consider that, if I hadn't drawn out on a tag for some other area. It is a matter of obtaining meat. But when it involves taking a "trophy" it shouldn't be allowed in the record books. It would never have attained as much mass and tine length had it been on public land it's entire life.

RE: High fenced trophies?
 

So what do you think of guided hunts then on public land?

RE: High fenced trophies?
 

I am unsure about those, they have a fairly high success rate, but the size of the animal is much smaller.

RE: High fenced trophies?
 

Personally 99% of the time I'm just takin' my gun for a walk so it don't matter what kind of freakin' land I'm on:D:D