I take care of trails for three districts on the National Forest and I'm a little bothered by what I'm seeing. My planned budget is only allowing me to hire four trail crew hands this upcoming season. I have approximately six hundred miles of trail to maintain. This past year about twelve miles of trail were burned over up in our Wilderness area. For the most part the trails are dangerous and hard to use due to erosion and the excess trees falling down. I have talked with several outfitters and they are having a hard time with unmaintained trails. I'm hearing this from other Forest, especially where we've had big fires. Now I'm told they are going to cut the budget even more. As an avid hunter and person in charge of trails this is frustrating as we can't open up these trails with what we have. You get the idea what I'm trying to say. Is anyone else having problems getting into their favorite spots? A related issue I would like to bring up is chainaws vs. crosscuts in Wilderness areas? Does everyone understand why we don't use chainsaws in Wilderness?

I understand fully why you won't use a chainsaw. At least I think I do, so please correct me if I'm wrong. Isn't it that you don't want to disrupt the enviroment with the noise and the commotion?

The Wilderness Act makes it illegal to use motorized equipment in designated Wilderness areas. The idea is so people have a place to go and have sollitude and can get away from modern noises. There are some exceptions but I don't want to get into a educational mode. I will say though that it was a hunter with extended hunting pack trips in mind who is responsible for starting the Wilderness system we have in place. That would be Aldo Leopold who got the Forest Service to set aside the Gila Wilderness we have here in New Mexico. It's now one of my favorite elk hunting spots.

Thanks for the info!

rambopacker,

Can you help me a little more? I don't know what state you work in but when I was in Colorado this past year I rode up into Rhoutt Nat'l Forest to see the camp grounds. While there I saw a lot of fallen trees that had been cut up, probably for fire wood. I was told, by a nat'l forest worker, that you could cut up any fallen tree, but the type of saw never came up. Do you know if you can use a chain saw to cut up trees along the road way to the camp grounds.

Thanks,
dog1

Parks and environmental policies are really getting out of hand and beyond the realm of common sense. Many of these policies are promoted by people who may never visit a park or reserve, whatever you call them. Here in Ontario, we have wilderness parks where hunting is prohibited. Most of these designations were pushed by parks users such as canoeists and hikers from Southern Ontario who generally use the parks and their waterways in June, July and August. In 30 yrs as a Conservation Officer, I've yet to meet a canoeist or hiker in Sept or Oct when our hunting seasons run, and yet No Hunting is allowed. There would never be any conflict between the two users on these remote land bases. Our crown land is designed in such a way that all citizens of the province own them, yet special interest groups are calling the shots--as usual!

I have some real problems with the wilderness area concept as it has been instituted and administered by the USFS. Apparently common sense has no place in a bureaucracy and even though good hard working people like yourself go to great pains to make things work you are limited by your own rules.
12 miles of trails in a wilderness area that are virtually unusable and you are getting complaints from outfitters? Let those that benefit the most, provide some funds and labor to fix them. Against the rules? Change the rules! Most of them are not laws passed by the congress, but policy set by the chair polishers at a higher level that are more interested in their carrers than in doing the right thing. That goes to the chainsaw question, it is understandable to keep chainsaws out of wilderness as a general rule, but to apply it to those that are trying to maintain the area is ridiculous. Fire fighters have died due to these policies, millions of dollars worth of timber are wasted annually due to these policies and many people are denied access to the land and forests that are, in truth, owned by the people due to these policies. Time for some drastic changes in those policies and administrators I think.

Let's see, chainsaws in the wilderness. Just what I want to hear when I pack in to get away from the mess we call civilization. And boy could we improve the access with those! Instead of every other rock having toilet paper under it, it would be every rock! We could always boil our water twice as long. And who cares about packing wood a half mile to the campsite, or packing in feed cause all the grass is chewed down by July 30th. I say keep the pink asses outta the wilderness by keeping it a tough place (i.e. real wilderness). And to hell with the outfitters! If they wanna use the dam trails on public land, they can help clear 'em. No need to throw more of my tax dollars away propping up private businesses. Hell, we gotta save up for them Mars missions. I'm all in favor of goin' into debt to go to Mars. As long as I can git my home paid for and reload enough ammo to keep me in meat when I'm old (cause social security won't be around), and as long as I can buy my prescriptions in Canader and have a couple doctors as friends, I'm all for funneling our nation's prosperity into the pockets of the military industrial complex. While we're at it, we need to start implantin' them chips in people and horse's skulls so when they pass by certain trees they could be counted accurately, with immediate notification sent to the Homeland Security department, the FBI, the INS, and the NCAA when a former shoplifter, traffic violator, or first round draft pick tried to pack in. Jus' as long as there ain't any noisy chainsaws in the backcountry so I can still fish and hunt without bein' reminded of the sick values we've adopted in this country.

Wow, sensitive issue as always. I'll keep it simple. For dog1, I don't know the particular rules on the Forest up in Colorado but in general chainsaws are allowed to be used for legal woodcutting outside the Wilderness. It didn't sound like you were in a Wilderness. For sawbill, I feel for you. We have a Wilderness System that includes land by four agencies, Park Service, Forest Service, BLM and the Fish and Wildlife Service. There are exceptions but hunting is allowed in all but the National Park Service and that is for their non-Wilderness areas too.

Personally I appreciate outfitters who use Wilderness appropriately and are Light on the Land. I know outfitters who educate the public about our National Forest and Leave No Trace Principles. I also know outfitters who help clear the trails, pick up others garbage and help with other trail work. You bet there are many who don't and those who care of nothing but making a buck but most do what they do because they love the Forest. Those clients who they take into the Forest are tax payers too and have the right to hunt in our National Forest/Wilderness areas. A percentage of what an outfitter makes is payed to the Forest for their use on Public Land. Most outfitters I've known don't make a lot of money, their office is pay enough. When people pick outfitters I hope they ask them about such things and pick accordingly. Being from a military family and having been in the military myself I understand the need to fund them first in todays world. It still bothers me to see our Forest and Parks underfunded. Last, I like hunting out in the places without the noises(chainsaws) and we can cut em with the cross-cuts almost as fast.

BJ, even when you drop the hillbilly/hayseed act I still have a difficult time trying to figure out what you're trying to say. I don't know if today you're one of those tree hugging hypocrites from the city or Griz Adams but I do know this. If that land truly does belong to everyone, then everyone should have the opportunity to use it and have a say in how its managed. You will also run the gamut of types of people who want to use it, from the tree hugger to the recreational user to the commercial user. So, if these trails must be maintained, then get the crews in and then get them out as quick as possible. If that means using a chainsaw to reach this goal, then by all means, go at it. I've cleaned up after too many blowdowns in my time to realize how impractical it is to use buck saws or axes. Better to return the site to its expected condition in a few days than have a crew tied up for a month in the heat of the summer or in the middle of hunting season. Remember, RBPacker was talking about repairing and cleaning 12 miles of trail, not clear cutting a super highway. Don't forget, it was these 'pink asses' as you put it, who probably were instumental in bringing in the noice polution restrictions. These people are the proverbial camel. Give them an inch and they'll take a mile. Next thing they'll want is archery only as the sound of a rifle shot will be disturbing to them. Then they'll want yada yada...... you get where I'm going with this. Happy trails, gentlemen......