Colorado elk
12-21-2018, 04:38 AM
#21
Dominant Buck
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: On an Island in Vermont
Posts: 22,593
Well it looks like this thread has run its course and not even a discussion about the problems the OP was trying to air. Sad for me because I am pretty sure there is some validity to what was being said. This is not HNI's finest hour.
Last edited by Champlain Islander; 12-21-2018 at 12:43 PM. Reason: helping out Cal......
12-21-2018, 07:29 AM
#22
Super Moderator
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Northern California
Posts: 18,381
However, that choice enables bullying and bad behavior that has been plaguing HNI for a while and it also weakens the credibility of the other mods and makes our jobs harder. 3 of us mods wanted to take direct action yet held off out of respect for the involved mod. The above actions were taken to restore balance to the topic and set an example that bullying isn't going to be tolerated. They should not be taken as a judgement of the other mod as becoming a mod does have a steep learning curve, something that all of us mods can attest to. The other Mod also said any of us other mods were welcome to jump in if we so desired. 3 of us did but I was a little quicker.
For future reference, if anybody has a complaint about a particular post, please use the yellow complaint ticket button which is located at the bottom left of each post. Filing such a complaint will direct an email to all mods and Admin so that whoever is available quickest can respond in the quickest manner possible. If you wish to address your issue directly with the offending member, please use the PM feature to send that member only a Private Message so that the 2 of you can discuss it away from the forum. Doing so keeps it out of the forums and does not violate the rules--unless you're going to threaten, harass or intimidate the person in the PM. That is still a rules violation. Just about everything you can do in life (sports, school, job, military, etc.) has rules we are required to abide by. HNI is no different. If you violate the rules, it will be addressed. If anybody has any questions about the above decisions or this post, as always, you are welcome to PM me and I will do my best to answer your questions.
So with all of this being said, gentlemen and ladies, play ball.
Last edited by CalHunter; 12-21-2018 at 10:26 AM. Reason: Clarity
12-21-2018, 07:43 AM
#23
Super Moderator
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Northern California
Posts: 18,381
Since this topic never truly got discussed due to the sidetracking and it is such an important topic, I've quoted the OP's OP post and broken it up into paragraphs so people can read and respond to it. I know quite a few members hunt regularly in Colorado and many more have hunted previously in Colorado. Your thoughts and suggestions would be helpful. I have not hunted in Colorado but do have some thoughts as well and will post them below in blue ink under the relevant parts of the OP's original post. Hopefully this also helps generate some discussion as well.
I posted some comments above. I'm not sure I would join another organization just yet but that may end up being at least part of the solution if RMEF, etc. are not doing their jobs. It sounds like Colorado parks is acknowledging the problem and would be supportive of steps to reduce this problem.
I was born in Colorado and have hunted big game since i was 14, so the math says that is almost 50 years of hunting deer and elk. For the last 25 years i have chased elk to hell and gone and have been fairly successful in filling my tags. But this is not about me, it is specifically about the condition of our elk herd, and i can bear witness that in my neck of the woods here in the southwest part of the state, that our herds are in trouble, and that is pretty much what Colo. Parks and Wildlife is saying statewide. Their studies show that the mortality rate of calves is way down in the first 6 month period of life for calves. They estimate that locally the herd is down 30-40 percent, and that has not been affected by adverse winters for the last 3 years.
An obvious question would be if predators are contributing to this issue. Has Colorado been forced to reintroduce wolves like Idaho?
Parks & Wildlife doesn't know why either. They say that it isn't predators, many of us local hunters who cover hundreds of miles hunting, say it is. They say that due to the amount of archery hunters during the pre rut that many bulls are staying away from the cows. Local archery hunters say that happens to a degree, but not enough to affect the herds to this degree. What has some of us local guys worried is that if the herds are declining, and the number of hunters is increasing each year, we will lose the foundational core of our herds.
Which predators?
Colo Parks know they have a problem, but they also need the revenue to exist and manage the hunting resoures in this state. There is a hinting from the rumors that they are looking at archery restructuring, with this entailing maybe a shorter season, or maybe a draw. From some of the local archery hunters i have talked with, we agree that there is getting to be to many hunters in the easily accessable hunting areas, and each year there are more archery elk hunters in the woods. These same hunters said they would sacrafice hunting every year if it would bring the herds back up to where it was 8-10 years ago and also increase the bull to cow ratio's to where there are more bulls and also larger bulls. But, we also don't think that this is the fix required to stem this decline in elk. And we also don't think that archery should take the brunt of it. The over the counter elk tags puts a bullseye on this state from hunters across the nation, and as the amount of hunters increases each year, it is an unsustainable equation for having quality elk herds in the future.
I don't know Colorado's hunting seasons but would at least a partial solution include changes to the predator seasons? Lengthening them, maybe adding a 2nd tag, etc.?
So, some of us here are seriously talking about starting up a non profit hunting organization specifically to try and get a voice representing hunters with the Wildlife Commission, with the legislature, and assist them in finding answers that are fair to all and increase the health of our elk herds. For now, that is the biggest issue we see, but we hopefully will have input into all aspects of hunting of all the game in Colorado. So i am reaching out to you all, because everything i have talked about affect's a fair number of you. I know that some of you have had some good hunts in this state recently, and the are localized areas that there is still a fair number of elk, but i guarantee you, my aching feet at the end of each archery season guarantees it, that for the last 5 years,my son and i spend much of our time asking each other where the hell the are the elk. When, after each season, 30-40 guys who hunt hard and cover terrain like a goat, each have the same report from our hunts, well, we knew there was a problem before the Parks and Wildlife did.
Where is the RMEF on this? Shouldn't they be stepping up to the plate on this?
So, input fellow archery hunters, rifle hunters of elk. Would you sacrafice to have better hunting, and to what degree? And the same for rifle hunters? And eventually, when we get this organization off the ground, would you be interested in supporting it? I've tried to give you just the basics of this issue, and i would be remiss if i didn't remind you that pretty much all hunting nowdays boils down to money, revenue. Wildlife is a resource, has to be managed, and that costs money. So when we talk about trying to get a voice and bring about change that is good for all, it is a pretty tall tree we are barking up, and as i have been telling people, you better have a pretty loud bark to be heard. And that can happen only in numbers, so we shall see where this takes us.
Thank you fellow "huntsmen of the woods"
An obvious question would be if predators are contributing to this issue. Has Colorado been forced to reintroduce wolves like Idaho?
Parks & Wildlife doesn't know why either. They say that it isn't predators, many of us local hunters who cover hundreds of miles hunting, say it is. They say that due to the amount of archery hunters during the pre rut that many bulls are staying away from the cows. Local archery hunters say that happens to a degree, but not enough to affect the herds to this degree. What has some of us local guys worried is that if the herds are declining, and the number of hunters is increasing each year, we will lose the foundational core of our herds.
Which predators?
Colo Parks know they have a problem, but they also need the revenue to exist and manage the hunting resoures in this state. There is a hinting from the rumors that they are looking at archery restructuring, with this entailing maybe a shorter season, or maybe a draw. From some of the local archery hunters i have talked with, we agree that there is getting to be to many hunters in the easily accessable hunting areas, and each year there are more archery elk hunters in the woods. These same hunters said they would sacrafice hunting every year if it would bring the herds back up to where it was 8-10 years ago and also increase the bull to cow ratio's to where there are more bulls and also larger bulls. But, we also don't think that this is the fix required to stem this decline in elk. And we also don't think that archery should take the brunt of it. The over the counter elk tags puts a bullseye on this state from hunters across the nation, and as the amount of hunters increases each year, it is an unsustainable equation for having quality elk herds in the future.
I don't know Colorado's hunting seasons but would at least a partial solution include changes to the predator seasons? Lengthening them, maybe adding a 2nd tag, etc.?
So, some of us here are seriously talking about starting up a non profit hunting organization specifically to try and get a voice representing hunters with the Wildlife Commission, with the legislature, and assist them in finding answers that are fair to all and increase the health of our elk herds. For now, that is the biggest issue we see, but we hopefully will have input into all aspects of hunting of all the game in Colorado. So i am reaching out to you all, because everything i have talked about affect's a fair number of you. I know that some of you have had some good hunts in this state recently, and the are localized areas that there is still a fair number of elk, but i guarantee you, my aching feet at the end of each archery season guarantees it, that for the last 5 years,my son and i spend much of our time asking each other where the hell the are the elk. When, after each season, 30-40 guys who hunt hard and cover terrain like a goat, each have the same report from our hunts, well, we knew there was a problem before the Parks and Wildlife did.
Where is the RMEF on this? Shouldn't they be stepping up to the plate on this?
So, input fellow archery hunters, rifle hunters of elk. Would you sacrafice to have better hunting, and to what degree? And the same for rifle hunters? And eventually, when we get this organization off the ground, would you be interested in supporting it? I've tried to give you just the basics of this issue, and i would be remiss if i didn't remind you that pretty much all hunting nowdays boils down to money, revenue. Wildlife is a resource, has to be managed, and that costs money. So when we talk about trying to get a voice and bring about change that is good for all, it is a pretty tall tree we are barking up, and as i have been telling people, you better have a pretty loud bark to be heard. And that can happen only in numbers, so we shall see where this takes us.
Thank you fellow "huntsmen of the woods"
12-21-2018, 01:12 PM
#24
Dominant Buck
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: On an Island in Vermont
Posts: 22,593
Thank you Cal for all the work you put in here bringing this whole thing to rest. Thank you for all you do as a moderator.
To the main issue of a declining Colorado elk herd.... It was several years ago that my hunting partner Rob and I were talking with a mutual friend who is a lifelong Colorado resident with what I remember as a degree in wildlife biology. His dad before he passed was also a lifelong Colorado resident, ardent hunter and past member of the Colorado Wildlife Commission or so I have been told. My friend at that time was under the opinion that the elk herd was down especially on the western rim west of the St Louis Valley. I believe he thought it was predator related and we even talked about unsubstantiated wolf sightings. At that time I don't think the Colorado DOW acknowledged that there was a problem. I did a little research and it appears now they are talking about a shortage of elk in many areas without a good explanation of why. I know that there are a large number of hunters with more coming to the state each year but find it hard to believe that would impact natures ability for procreation. The animals IMO always find a way to get it done.
To the main issue of a declining Colorado elk herd.... It was several years ago that my hunting partner Rob and I were talking with a mutual friend who is a lifelong Colorado resident with what I remember as a degree in wildlife biology. His dad before he passed was also a lifelong Colorado resident, ardent hunter and past member of the Colorado Wildlife Commission or so I have been told. My friend at that time was under the opinion that the elk herd was down especially on the western rim west of the St Louis Valley. I believe he thought it was predator related and we even talked about unsubstantiated wolf sightings. At that time I don't think the Colorado DOW acknowledged that there was a problem. I did a little research and it appears now they are talking about a shortage of elk in many areas without a good explanation of why. I know that there are a large number of hunters with more coming to the state each year but find it hard to believe that would impact natures ability for procreation. The animals IMO always find a way to get it done.
Last edited by Champlain Islander; 12-21-2018 at 01:29 PM.
12-21-2018, 01:44 PM
#26
Dominant Buck
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: On an Island in Vermont
Posts: 22,593
Many years ago in Colorado I believe there was a wolf population (might be red wolves from Mexico) but nothing at the time was substantiated. I believe bears and lions do account for elk calf mortality but they have always been there and there should be no biological reason why that form of predation would suddenly rise. When there is a dramatic drop in native wildlife generally there has to be either a man made problem or disease. Here in Northern Vermont our moose herd has taken a dramatic drop and the state biologists have cut down the hunting permits allocated and done some studies to determine why the numbers dropped. They came up with winter ticks which are now epidemic proportions on the calves which cause them to rub against trees to try and get them off. This action removes the hair and many freeze to death due in part to less hair and also from blood loss from thousands of ticks which are on the calves. They blame it on warming climate which allows the ticks to survive further north than before. I am a Vermont native and live within 30 miles from where I was born. I am 70 years old and can't remember ever even hearing about ticks in Vermont. We now have them in numbers great enough to cause lime disease to be of epidemic proportions. Something changed.
12-21-2018, 02:04 PM
#27
Super Moderator
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Northern California
Posts: 18,381
Thanks for the nice compliment CI. This place used to be a lot more tolerant of others and more experienced hunters took the time to explain things to others instead of simply berating them. New members used to have more patience also and not immediately jump into the fray. And a lot of the older members would keep other members in check by telling them to calm down and not get so worked up. back then, most members self policed and other members were a calming influence for the better. Mods didn't have to get involved so much and a lot of members and mods had known each other for over a decade. It was a more congenial time where a lot of people were actually friends off the forum and was a lot more fun. There was a lot of knowledge and experience but also a lot of camaraderie and fun. It was definitely a different place back then.
12-21-2018, 02:25 PM
#28
Dominant Buck
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: On an Island in Vermont
Posts: 22,593
I have said this more than a few times...HNI is only as good as the people who post. There always something special about HNI and in it's heyday the posts just kept coming. Day after day and hour by hour there was interest. I know I'll keep posting here and hopefully others feel the same way. From time to time moderators have to act but in the long run good consistent moderation means a well rounded and amicable forum which in HNI's case allows a good exchange of tips, knowledge and questions. I do hope to see less of the sniping and more of the exchange of ideas and friendship both with people who share the same ideals and others who might want to learn.
12-21-2018, 03:53 PM
#29
Dominant Buck
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: On an Island in Vermont
Posts: 22,593
Back to the original subject. I just talked with my friend who lives in Colorado and asked him whether the perceived elk herd shortage had spread from the western rim to statewide and he confirmed that it had. He has attended a few meetings with other sportsmen and the DOW and discussions have gone on to a possible solution. The long and short is that there are most likely several reasons like some disease, predation but the main focus has been on hunter pressure. He feels they have allowed too many elk to be harvested and the fix involves allowing less tags to go out which is a difficult dilemma because they need the revenue to keep the department running. A real catch 22. Apparently there is a plan in place to lower tags on a measured basis in certain areas and track the harvest results. My guess is that the tags will be harder to come by and get more expensive.
