RE: Grizzly Bears
 

I am sorry my friend but I know of two people who have killed black bears with buckshot and one who killed a bull moose with buckshot. The moose was shot at 45 yards with an 3 1/2" 18 pellet load of 00, it droped like a rock.

One of the bears was over 500 lbs. and was killed with a 3" shell of 00. The other bear was around 350-400 lbs. and was droped with a federal 3 1/2" 00 shell. I will try to get a picture of one of the bears for you. Now if you think tose buckshot loads are bad mine has around 1/4th more power and penetration capacity than those. I'm just stating you the facts, you say that such big game animals are not killable with buckshot. The only problem is that the bears and others are not aware of the rule.

From Squirrel to Elephant, the Shotgun is your gun.

RE: Grizzly Bears
 

Oh and Alaska Dave, show me a .44 mag that will penetrate more than 21" into wetphone books. Hell, show me one that will even get close to that deep.

From Squirrel to Elephant, the Shotgun is your gun.

RE: Grizzly Bears
 

Blain, not to "gang up" on you in here, but let me ask this. How long has buck shot and the shot gun been around? I'm guessing and this is purely a guess. Maybe 150 years??? Maybe longer, maybe not. If buck shot has been around that long, how come many professional hunters (Peter Capstick of Africa fame for instance, or modern day professionals in Alaska, Africa, Canada, America, Austrailia etc...) DO NOT or DID NOT use buck shot when hunting large beasts? Particularly the big bears in North America??? Ok, I'll throw you a "bone" and say maybe a few rare instances here and there, hunters may perhaps have used buckshot successfully. But I'm willing to bet that in those instances, those hunters said, "that's the last time I use buck shot" more times than not.

I believe that pro hunters in THEIR professional opinion and experience believed BUCKshot is better for deer/humans, than big bears and other dangerous game. Hell, a .22lr could and has killed big grizzlys and even an elephant!!!! It's rare and extreme. Hell, BB guns have killed humans too. Anything is possible with firearms, but not probably or practical when it comes to the topic of buck shot and big bears.

I think that in the real and practical world of hunting, buck shot fails to perform on big creatures. It may kill 21" of wet phone books as you claim, but is probably a poor choice to use on a Kodiak. If it was all the rage, I'm sure ammo makers etc... would "push" for more hunters to use the stuff in lieu of heavy hitting rifle bullets.

Heck, look at an African lion for instance. Thin skinned, hardly any fat, lean muscle, but not as thick as a grizzly's muscle. A big bear has several inches of thick fur, fat, bone and muscle. Not to mention a tough hide (skin, which obviously isn't "inches" thick.)

Now, if buckshot works better than a big rifle bullet, why didn't the famed Peter Capstick use it on lions? He shot at close range dozens of dozens of times. You'd think that at close range with a charging lion wanting a "human sandwhich", your buckshot would be just what the doctor ordered. Well, professionals like Capstick didn't feel that way.

What about professional guide services in Alaska or Canada? Do they carry buckshot when guiding their clients on dangerous bear hunts? I'm not sure of the answer, buy I'm guessing a big whopping "NO" for the answer. Im sure Arcticbowman, Thaninator or some other people who live and hunt more in Alaska might know the answer. I don't know, maybe the guide services do use buckshot, but I'd be willing to bet money that they dont. Why? Because a big rifle bullet performs better and probably more humainly than buckshot does.

The limited hunting shows I've seen on TNN, Outdoor channel, ESPN-2 etc that have actually broken away from whitetail deer hunting programs and have shown actual bear hunts, show the guides carrying rifles if their carring anything at all. I've never ever seen one with a shotgun.

Why is that???? Heck, a good shotgun and buck shot is surely cheaper than a decent rifle. I think it's because the guides know better and don't want to take a chance with buck shot of a big dangerous bear, even if the shotgun is cheaper in price. Performance is the key and a rifle bullet simply beats buck shot in that department.

In africa, most of the pro hunters of past carried double rifles because of the fast follow up shot when encountering a close possible charging dangerous animal. Particularly for lion hunters. Like I mentioned above, a lion has weaker "body armor" than a big bear, but the pro hunters demanded a rifle. Not buckshot.

Just my opinion and observation over the years.

Edited by - Hk45USP on 01/14/2002 01:53:05

RE: Grizzly Bears
 

Hey Guys:
Don't you think this buckshot discussion should be moved back to Blain's Buckshot thread? Let's keep this a discussion on Grizly bears.

Blain:
I'll take your bet on the .44's ability to penetrate the wet phone books. How much money are you willing to put up.

Though I've done this test before, I wouldn't use it to determine a round's lethality on bear. Phone books can't bite.

<img src=icon_smile_tongue.gif border=0 align=middle> If You Ain't Hunted Alaska, You're Still Just Practicing <img src=icon_smile_tongue.gif border=0 align=middle>

RE: Grizzly Bears
 

Thaninator ever thought about guiding a few flat lander's on a grizzly hunt?. I will pay for the tag and we can bring blain to let him &quot;test&quot; his theory (video camera also) .
How close can you normaly get to one when hunting one? 300 win mag is the largest gun I own but have access to a 338.
Mike

RE: Grizzly Bears
 

Mike:
I would love to &quot;guide&quot; grizzly hunts, but state law forbids it. I would have to go through the headache of acquiring a state guiding liscense...no interest in that torture.

Besides, I enjoy exploring as much as hunting, and would find it very difficult to pick a single &quot;territory&quot; and sticking to it.

On the other hand, it's common practice to have a &quot;guest&quot; along when hunting griz.

Though a tad on the light side, a .300 mag, will suffice for griz (especially inland griz, which are significantly smaller than their coastal cousins), though if given a choice, I would definatly pick the .338, which is my personal hunting rifle caliber.

The advantage of the .338 is it's bullet weight.

Seems that most of the really close encouters with griz occur when you are not hunting them.

But this does not mean that one cannot stalk to very close (archery distances) to bear when needed.

As mentioned earlier in this post, when a bear is feeding intently, and the wind is in your favor, you can easily work yourself into hair rasing distance.

In fact, there will probably be times when you are sitting there with your bow and punny little arrow (or buckshot), wondering what the heck your doing so close :)



<img src=icon_smile_tongue.gif border=0 align=middle> If You Ain't Hunted Alaska, You're Still Just Practicing <img src=icon_smile_tongue.gif border=0 align=middle>

RE: Grizzly Bears
 

Peter Capstick said he wouldn’t hesitate to shoot buckshot at any animal at 10 yards or less cept African and Asian Elephant and Buffalo. Also keep in mind that this was back before there was even 3” shells, never mind 3 ½”ers. Also I doubt he knew much about the patterning techniques of getting really tight buckshot patterns. I guess what I don’t understand is why you don’t think buckshot is powerful? Many do use buckshot in Alaska and the north for anti bear protection, many others also use brenneke slugs. Also it should be noted that ammo makers don’t really manufactor, nevermind specilize in buckshot shells. Only one private company that I know of reloads them. That is partly why I am going on this mission and releasing this video, to prove everyone what buckshot can really do. The question is once this is all proven and documented with video evidence, what will you say/do?

Most people don’t choose buckshot because like you they are not even aware of what buckshot can do when it is setup properly. It is all so unknown so how could most people een consider making such a decision? And yes, T, I will take you up in that bet. How about for $50-100?

“Buckshot has such a traumatizing shock effect because impact damage goes up as the square of the number of simultaneous hits: 2 hits from one shot is the same as 4 hits from separate shots, 3 hits is the same as 9 independent hits, etc etc.”

Getting hit by the 12 pellet 0000 buckshot load would be akin to being shot with 144 separate shots from a .38 special!

“Statistically, in 100% of fire exchanges, lethal are 95% of the targets defeated with a shotgun, compared to 47-50% hit with an automatic weapon and 3-4% hit with a handgun.”




From Squirrel to Elephant, the Shotgun is your gun.

RE: Grizzly Bears
 

Thaninator
I meant to say have a guest flat lander UNCLE Than.

Blain I am very sure I would not want to get 10 yards or less to a mad grizzly with just a scatter gun regardless of what Peter Capstick say's . I guess if it didnt slow him down any it would give you something a little bigger than a handgun to throw at him.

Mike

RE: Grizzly Bears
 

I have withheld typing until I heard the peter capstick stuff. I just finished reading Death on the Dark Continent yesterday.

While what you are quoting might be true, the way you are quoting it is really implying something different than what is intended. Capstick does praise his shotgun. But, realize that he uses it on leopards and lions that are already wounded that he now has to get out of the brush.
he uses it only on thin skinned animals. Ones that are near death. and much of the time with lions, he uses the shotgun only to make the lion roar and give up his location and then shoots the wounded lion with a rifle.

It seemed that the only wounded animal captstick consistently used the shotgun on was a leopard. That was because he said there wassn't enough time to aim a rifle when a leopard pounced.

beej

RE: Grizzly Bears
 

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote<font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
Oh and Alaska Dave, show me a .44 mag that will penetrate more than 21&quot; into wetphone books. Hell, show me one that will even get close to that deep.
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote>

You think an individual 00 or 000 lead pellet weighing perhaps 40-60 grains at 1400-1500 fps will out-penetrate a hardened 250-300 grain cast bullet from a .44 Mag????

I will pray for your safety on this upcoming hunt!