Grizzly Bears
 

I would like to go on a grizzly, or brown bear hunt. If anyone has been on a bear hunt, could you tell me what it is like. Also maybe some reputable(I love that word)outfitters, I would appreciate it.

RE: Grizzly Bears
 

I hunted grizzly in northern B.C. with taku outfitters owned by guy antilla.We travelled by jet boat along the river and glassed from various viewpoints along the river then stalked the bears from there.I had an excellent guide and the facilities were first class.Weather was abnormally hot so we didn't see as many bears as normal but I was able to take a bear on the eigth day.

RE: Grizzly Bears
 

I don't think there are too many places for grizzly hunting that are similar to the area that I normally hunt them. The terrain is flat, wide open and offers very little cover with no trees. There are small mounds and bushes are abundant on the river beds, but this both helps and hinders stalks on grizzlies.
It's a bow only area, at least the part that I hunt, so getting close enough for a shot is fairly difficult. If the bears are out there, you can usually spot them easily, but getting down wind, and into a position where you can close the distance is very time consuming, usually, and sometimes impossible.
If your going to hunt grizzlies at close range, you need to have the right mindset going in. Save the excitement and the adrenaline rush for after the shot, and stick to the matter at hand like it's a life or death situation.
It's very rewarding getting within range, but you can take it from me, these grizzlies are tough and resiliant creatures. Making sure your equipment is in perfect working order, and your abilities are 100% are a must. Even when things come together perfectly, there is still the possibility of something going wrong. Bears are very unpredictable, very resiliant and very curious, as well as very skittish. Alot of factors that could make the hunt interesting or aggravating.

RE: Grizzly Bears
 

Hi Tussey:
Welcome to the club. I have to agree whole heartedly with ArcticBowman. It's definitely a thrill to sneak up close on a griz when there is very little to no cover.

Though griz are plentiful when hunting them, I always seem to find the most griz, and have more bizarre encounters when I'm not looking for them. :)

For your amusement, two such incidents follow:

I'll never forget the time that my partner and I had a close encounter. We had just spent the last 4 days cutting our way out of the Kahiltna basin, loaded to the gills with gear and meat, when his machine over heated and we had to shut down.

Swatting at the ever present bugs, I suddenly caught a whiff of that all too distinct bear smell (kinda like a wet dog, only much stronger). Instantly the hair on the back of my neck stood up. Quickly looking to my left, I noticed a large pile of debris, with a moose's hoof sticking out! Sure sign of a bear kill.

You never saw two guys grab iron so fast in your life. Here we were sitting in the middle of a small tundra opening, surrounded by thick brush, and a fresh carcass that a bear had obviously staked claim to, just 15 feet away, and his scent still fresh enough for our poor quality noses to smell…and no way to escape.

Seasoned in the ways of bears, both my partner and I kept our guns at the ready, each looking in different directions, with his 7 year old son between us, and with the occasional surreptitious glances at his confound engine temp light, waiting for it to go out.

Luckily the bear had thought better of taking us on, and the only sign of him, besides the smell, was the bushes moving, as though in a slow direct line away from us.

In another fun encounter, I had dropped a nice spike/fork moose deep in a swamp area, at about 8:00 pm. Darkness was setting in fast, and I knew that I was in heavy bear country. Normally this is not a big deal, because your partner and you take turns riding shotgun as the other skins, but on this trip, I was by myself.

Not 5 minutes had passed since I arrived at the kill, when I heard the "popping" and woofing noises associated with an agitated griz. My animal was in a bit of a depression, laying in about 6 inches of water, surrounded by high grassy tussocks. About 10 feet from where the moose lay, was the beginning of an alder thicket. The bear was in there, shaking the brush, making noise, and generally letting me know that he wanted my moose (by his proximity, I suspect that he may have been stalking the moose, in hopes of killing it for his dinner).

Sweating like a pig, with my much vaunted Beneli 12 gauge propped up against the carcass, I set a world record skinning that moose. Every few seconds, I would stand erect, wipe the sweat out of my eyes, and yell at the bear. I only actually saw him three times, but he never left me alone the whole time I was there.

Finally, after about 45 minutes, and with the light too dim to even see the bear if I had to shoot it, I got the last of the meat in a game bag, threw it in the back of my Polaris 6x, fired 'er up, and was out of there.

I fervently hoped that I had left enough gut like delicacies behind to keep the bear from feeling the need to follow me (trust me on this one, I and several friends of mine, have been stalked by griz while riding wheelers. The myth that they are afraid or deterred by the engine noise is pure nonsense).

It took me a good three hours of riding through the swamps (no trails in this area), dodging holes, small stumps, and all the many other hazards present in such terrain, with nothing but the dim, and all too narrow beam of my headlight, to finally make it back to my vehicle (thank God for the Advent of the GPS).

The next day, after the moose was hung, I decided to go back to the same area with a friend, and see if we could fill his tag. Again, there were no trails to follow as we were exploring new territory the whole way.

When finally we arrived at where my GPS said the moose carcass was, all we could find was scattered bones, and shreds of skin. The bear had eaten the majority of the gut pile, and drug the rest of the carcass (mostly the head, spinal column and pelvic bone) deep into the alder thicket.

These are just two of what I consider the more recent comical encounters.

As a life long Alaskan, who spends a great deal of time, exploring and playing in the wilderness (though the last trip I mentioned was not really wilderness, as I could get to my vehicle in one day) it is practically inevitable that I posses a vast repertoire of such encounters, including some that involved attack, surprise, mischief, and all too close of calls.

What ever else, you can be assured that grizzly hunting is one of life's most exciting challenges, and that it is never dull.

Oh, by the way, be sure to carry a back up weapon, just incase you miss with the bow, or your arrow happens to piss it off, and it identifies you as the source of it's discomfort :)

Never used a guide, so can't help you there...sorry.

<img src=icon_smile_tongue.gif border=0 align=middle> If You Ain't Hunted Alaska, You're Still Just Practicing <img src=icon_smile_tongue.gif border=0 align=middle>

RE: Grizzly Bears
 

Hello Tussey
Sorry I dont have any info for you but always wanted to do exactley the same thing
(stalk and hunt no bait) But if you need a partner let me know I am only about 12 miles from you .
I do have a question for Thaninator.
why the Beneli do you think it would have detured the Griz if he decided to stake claim to your moose. I have seen the long thread's from blain but wouldn't personly trust a shoot gun on a grizzly

RE: Grizzly Bears
 

old 3 Shoot:
Good question. I have two guns that I use for personal protection in heavy bear country. Both have been heavily tested, and passed with flying colors, but both depend on using the right round.

The first is my Ruger Redhawk, .44 mag. I use a special 320 grn Hard Cast Alloy bullet from JD Jones, on top of 22.5 grns of H-110 powder (a compressed load). This puppy is traveling between 1200 and 1400 ft. per second, and can drop anything in North America within 100 yards (used to be my primary hunting gun). I use this weapon when carrying a shotgun is not practical.

The second is my Beneli M3 Super 90. This combat shotgun is incredibly accurate, super reliable, and holds a reassuring number of slugs.

Contrary to what you may have read on Blain's posting, I wouldn't dream of using buck shot for defense against bear. Rather I use Breneki 3&quot; mag, Rotweill(sp?) slugs.

These slugs are very accurate out to 100 yards, and are hard enough to do some serious penetration.

Most of Alaska's agencies that are required to operate in bear country, or to dispatch rogue bears use this exact same slug. Both state and federal authorities use it. It works.

The situations that I use these weapons in, are always up close and personal, i.e. when a bear tries to crawl into your tent with you, or when he tries to steal your kill, etc.

One important thing to remember is PRACTICE. Just about any weapon will be worthless in a situation like a bear attack, if shooting it is not second nature. You need to be so proficient with your weapons, that you can shoot them accurately with out thinking about it.

So, though I was on the carcass by myself, and would have had to reach for the Beneli, to shoot the bruin if it did attack, I am very confident in it's stopping power at close range, and can think of nothing better (I had my .44 with me, on the machine, as well, but would take the 12 gauge over it in a close up situation like described).

Keep on inquiring, it'll keep you alive when the bear poop hits the fan <img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle>

<img src=icon_smile_tongue.gif border=0 align=middle> If You Ain't Hunted Alaska, You're Still Just Practicing <img src=icon_smile_tongue.gif border=0 align=middle>

RE: Grizzly Bears
 

Hello Thaninator ever think of being a guide for griz . I know for a fact I would never turn my back on a grizzly that was only 10 feet from me unless I KNEW it was either dead or had a full belly. I have no experience with grizzly but I do know from the discover channel etc that they can cover allot of real-estate fast . I was just assuming that you had 00 buck shoot in the shoot gun to deture him . I wouldnt think you would have much of a chance with slugs and only being 10 feet from the bruin.
Mike

RE: Grizzly Bears
 

Count to 10!
Take two aspirins, and call me in the morning!

RE: Grizzly Bears
 

old 3 Shoot:

Now you've gone and done it. I'm force me take all the fun out of the story, by telling you a few secrets that will make you realize that I wasn't in as much danger as it's fun to think <img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle>

Though I would never choose such a distance, the slugs that I have described earlier in this posting, are about the only thing that can stop a bear from 10 ft. (better be good at shooting from the hip though). But even then, you may have to do some quick moving to avoid being run down. This is why I kept the gun propped on the carcass, never more than arms length away, and made sure that the carcass was between me and the bear when ever possible.

The combination of many years of practice and some combat competition training, combined with actual instances of use, gave me the ability to asses my chances of ending an altercation with this animal with me on top.

Additionally, I felt that I had no choice, cuz I wasn't going to leave my moose out there to be eaten by the bear, when I have two freezers to keep full, and several families to feed.

Having studied bears and having had many close encounters over the years, it is inevitable that I've become very familiar with bear behavior, and can read a good deal of their body language.

Now for the secrets: While the brush line started at about 10 feet away, the animal vacillated between the edge of the brush (the three times I saw him), and deep in the brush. With that kind of surge and retreat pattern, you can pretty much bet that the bear is just trying to intimidate you. Otherwise, you would witness a series of perpetually advancing surges. Or worse yet, if things got unexpectedly quiet after such a commotion, followed by a sudden low growl, that's your cue that your about to experience an all out charge.

Since I could hear him huffing and popping, and batting at the brush interspersed with the occasional quiet period, I knew he was bluffing, and had a pretty good idea where he was, thus worked at never having my back to him.

Yes I had to reassure myself by standing up and looking around, and yelling at him to let him know I was still their, and no this was not an optimum situation, but by knowing a bear's language, you have a chance of predicting an actual charge.

This does not mean that I wasn't as nervous as a cat on a hot tin roof, or that I didn't have good incentive to hustle. I definitely did not want to be there after dark (hard to shoot a bear you can't see, and they tend to get a bit bolder after sunset).

Technically, I could have popped him on one of the occasions that I saw him, but I felt that there was a better than even chance that he wouldn't complete the charge, and that I could finish up just as dark was hitting.

Now don't make me give away any more of my secrets, or all the bear tales will lose their glamour <img src=icon_smile_dissapprove.gif border=0 align=middle>

<img src=icon_smile_tongue.gif border=0 align=middle> If You Ain't Hunted Alaska, You're Still Just Practicing <img src=icon_smile_tongue.gif border=0 align=middle>

RE: Grizzly Bears
 

Hello Thaninator
No you did not take any of the fun from the story Im still thinking you have balls of brass .
Mike

RE: Grizzly Bears
 

Enjoyued reading your stories i have hunted both black bears and grizzley over the years . Where i hunt thewre are numerous grizz that we encounter on a daily basis. ahving my own pack horses allows me to hunt remote areas not pressured by hunters. In facrt I was one of the first hunter back into an area where bear hunting had be closed for 28 years and just opended up. In 7 days we encountered over 25 bears. if you would like to see a grizz that was harvested at 9 yards check it out at http://www.twangg.com/weber I managed to take a few photos before shooting it.

RE: Grizzly Bears
 

Hello Weber
very very impresed. what does it normaly cost for a tag . did you take it with a bow ?
Mike

RE: Grizzly Bears
 

Webber:
Love the &quot;before you shot&quot; pics of the Griz :) .

Great looking specimen. You've got a fantastic setup with packhorses, and living in BC. Does your son hunt with you often?

I thought that the Canadian Government was a bit anal about hunting griz, but this all must have changed.

We should talk about swapping hunts some day. I would love to introduce you and your son to Alaska, and I would love to come down to BC and on a hunt (been through many times, but never hunted).

Where you use horses, I use machines. Of the two, I'd prefer horses, but there upkeep is prohibitive for the average joe in Alaska. The next best thing is the proper tracked vehicle, and the knowledge of how to use it.

Looking forward to hearing more from you…keep on posting.

thane

<img src=icon_smile_tongue.gif border=0 align=middle> If You Ain't Hunted Alaska, You're Still Just Practicing <img src=icon_smile_tongue.gif border=0 align=middle>

RE: Grizzly Bears
 

“Sweating like a pig, with my much vaunted Beneli 12 gauge propped up against the carcass”

Heh, are you saying that you killed the moose with your Benelli? If so which round did you use and what distance? If the shotgun was just there for defense then what weapon did you use to down the moose with?

“Contrary to what you may have read on Blain's posting, I wouldn't dream of using buck shot for defense against bear.”

So according to your logic your pistol round with little over 1,000 ft/lbs of energy can kill any animal in North America but my magnum buckshot round with over 3,400 ft/lbs of energy can’t? And yes at the distances we are talking the shot is still in the shotcup and is as one projectile. Though I must say you do choose a good slug round, the most powerful 12-gauge slug round on the commercial market. Do you know how powerful and penetrative those babies are? What has been your experience with them? Meaning what kind of damage have you seen them do? Also what sorts of groups can you get with them out of your gun?


From Squirrel to Elephant, the Shotgun is your gun.

RE: Grizzly Bears
 

Blain:
I'd rather not re-open your buckshot vein here, but just for informational purposes:

The .44 round that I use is designed specifically for the harvesting of large game. JD Jones has used it to harvest all the big names in Africa, and I have hunted with it for years.

It is a very long bullet, with an exceptional sectional cross density, and a large frontal mass. It is cast with a special alloy designed to assure that it does not shatter upon impact with heavy bone, and does not mushroom. It is designed with one thing in mind...PENETRATION.

I've shot bull moose with this cartridge from 50 and 100 yards, with complete pass through on both shoulders. It penetrated the shoulder bone, on the front side, and exited through the shoulder bone on the other. The exit hole was the same size as the entrance hole.

Incidentally, the hydrostatic shock on the entrance shoulder is monumental...it has ruined the majority of more than one front quarter, by turning it to jelly.

I do not know the math behind the energy calculations (nor do I put much store by it, preferring instead to field test these things), but this specially designed (for pure penetration) 320 grn. bullet has been consistently chronographed between 1200 and 1400 ft per second.

There are faster and hotter loads out there for the .44, but I would not use them for bear. The key to the whole package is the bullet. With handguns on large game, you must have PENETRATION, or you will fail.

Finally, on the issue of using my .44 for defense (at times) as apposed to the shotgun…pure logistics. I carry my .44 in a shoulder holster when on foot. This assures that it is always with me, whether I'm going to the bathroom, or just hiking around.

The shotgun is a better weapon, but harder to carry.

As to the slug and its performance, the Breniki Rottweil slug in 3&quot; magnum is the widest used bear defense cartridge in Alaska. There are many penetration tests, both clinical and practical, that have been conducted with them. It is the results of these tests that make it the round of issue to all of our state and federal agencies that have to work in bear country, or deal with rogue bears.

My own experience with it is phenomenal. I can unequivocally state that it will penetrate from front to back (enter the chest, and break the pelvic, finally coming to a stop in rump tissue) on large bear, at close range. It is this PENETRATION that is so critical to dropping a charging grizzly…you must be able to break bone, and disembowel with a single shot!

For patterning purposes, let me state that with my Benneli, and using a &quot;walking&quot; (starting low in the chest, and letting the recoil help walk the rounds up the kill zone) pattern style of shooting, from the hip, I can get 3 shots of in as many seconds (or maybe less if I'm really scared :) ), all placed in the kill zone.

This same slug also performs admirably down range. I've shot it at 75 yards, and still managed to keep it in the kill zone, and have heard of others using it out to 100 yards…not bad for a combat shotgun.

<img src=icon_smile_tongue.gif border=0 align=middle> If You Ain't Hunted Alaska, You're Still Just Practicing <img src=icon_smile_tongue.gif border=0 align=middle>

RE: Grizzly Bears
 

Excellent Thaninator but you might need to explain it twice to some people. Maybe use smaller words. Keep em loaded.

Hunt smart, hunt safe

[Deleted]
 

[Deleted by Admins]

RE: Grizzly Bears
 

Still curios what does a tag for a grizzly cost.

you dont have to out run a grizzly you have to be able to out run your hunting buddy
Mike

[Deleted]
 

[Deleted by Admins]

RE: Grizzly Bears
 

45 minuets to dress a moose? Man, I shot a little 200lb black bear and it took me a couple hours to &quot;field dress&quot; it alone. And no, I'm not a &quot;beginner&quot; hunter. I've taken black bears, in my time, dozens upon dozens of deer, a few elk, antelope and 1 caribou. It takes time to dress out an animal. (Deer in my opinion is the exception.) Elk and caribou take way more time for me.

But I guess when stressed, you can quickly dress a big animal. Maybe you meant 1hour and 45 min. I don't know. Or, you just hacked away like a chain saw.

Also, the Breneke slugs ARE awesome, .....for a smooth bore. They are the best period. HOWEVER....

If you have a rifled barrel, a copper SABOT slug will and does penetrate beter than a Breneke. Also, range and accuracy with SABOTS/rifled barrels are superior. The only reason I'd suspect that Alaska law enforecement and Fish/game officers carry the Brenekes is because they do not have rifled slugs. Either or, it doesn't matter. I'd use Brenekes in a heart beat. Both slug &quot;systems&quot; work very well. I was just getting &quot;technical&quot; here regarding the best and hardest hitting slugs available in the civilian market. Sabots are the way to go.

One other note,,,,some village in Canada (somewhere way up there, i don't know the name) near the North Pole etc..., uses the good 'ole Remington 870's with regular Foster type 1oz slugs for POLAR BEARS!!!!

I saw a documentary where the &quot;neighborhood-polar-bear-watch&quot; group uses that gun/ammo combo when bears stray too close to the villagers and become &quot;dangerous pests.&quot; To date, they haven't lost a &quot;gun fight&quot; with a polar bear and those regular good old fashioned slugs and an old pump gun.

The villagers are, let's say, &quot;poor&quot; and can't afford a &quot;Benelli M3 Super-90&quot; (great gun by the way). With a Foster type slug at modest to close range, shot placement is gonna hurt and bring down a bear. Especially with rapid follow up shots. I'm so comfortable with a smooth bore that I'd use an 870 and Foster slugs without any hesitation.

Also, I agree with Thaninator and the .44mag issue. THe heaviest bullet I use in my Anaconda 6&quot; barrel is a Federal, Premium Hard cast lead bullet (same type of bullet Thaninator was describing) but it's only a 300 grainer. Federal says the bullet is specifically designed for deep penetration on large dangerous game. It worked for me on a Rocky mountain bull elk in Idaho and a California 440lb black bear. No problems. Yes, that's not a 1000lb grizzly, but hey, if that's all I had, I'd use it. Id just try to get off some accurate &quot;double taps&quot; etc...provided I dont cr*p my pants.

I know that the same 300 grain bullet drops wild pigs left and right. One pig I killed was a &quot;charging&quot; wild pig and it dropped him with one shot! I hit him right in the spine just below his shoulder. It broke his &quot;engine compartment&quot; in two pieces. So, those hard alloy bullets in .44mag really penetrate like a hot knife in butter.

I know that my M1-A with a 20 round magazine with 165grain soft points would stop a charging grizzly bear if I HAD to use it in an emergency.....(wishful thinking). All guns (including shotguns with 00 or 000 buck) are capable of killing anything on earth. Maybe not practicle, but definately capable. (Just my humble opinion)

Edited by - Hk45USP on 01/08/2002 03:18:52

RE: Grizzly Bears
 

Ak Jim:
Can't fool me buddy, I know that home schoolers are smarter than public...my daughter was home schooled for a while :)

You must have missed the part about having my 6 wheeler there. I didn't get fancy with it. Just used a BIG knife (Cold Steel Trail Master) with occasional help from KOA's Bear Cub, cut the thing up and threw it in. Had to carry it all of 3 feet.

And your right...I could never have done it in that amount of time, if it weren't for the bear cheering me on.

This was definitely the sloppiest butchering job I've ever done (and ever hope to do), but once all the hair and debris was removed, the meat tasted good just the same. Now that you mentioned it, makes me glad that I was by myself…would'a been embarrassing to let someone see that sloppy of a job. Oh, and I didn't salvage the tenderloins (they were under water, and didn't seem worth the extra time).

Thank God it was a small moose…couldn't imagine the struggle I'da had with a monster.

You'll have to tell the hammer story...sounds interesting. But I think I'll continue to use my .44, since my throwing arm ain't so good (I was on the home school baseball team <img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle> ).

Seriously though, are you saying that you don't understand how a .44 can take down a bear?

If the answer to that is &quot;yes&quot;, then I'll have to direct you to my previous dissertation on this particular bullet, and it's PENETRATION capabilities.

Don't get me wrong though, there are definitely better calibers out there i.e. 460 Weatherby, .375 H&H, .454 Casul, etc. This Just happens to be the gun I'm competent with, and the load that works for me.

I'll be happy to switch to the .454 though, as soon as someone wants to buy me this caliber in the new Red Hawk <img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>

Just out of curiosity, what would you say if I told you that my partner and I can get a bou completely butchered and in the bags, in just under 20 minutes (and unlike my Panic Attack Moose, neatly done at that)?

I'm not asking this to be facetious, but rather, because I have very limited exposure to other people's hunting (having been big game hunting solo, or with just two other people all of my life), and don't know if this would be considered a really good time, just average, or even a poor time (be gentle here…you might just break my heart if I find out it's a really, really poor time).

My partner(s) and I (with our families) typically have 5 bou down at one time, near camp. We started timing our butchering in the second year at this camp, as we started to think we were finally getting the hang of it, and to give us motivation to get done faster.

I'd appreciate input on it.

P.S. Sorry about the writing style...I'm too dumb to figure out how to change it <img src=icon_smile_sad.gif border=0 align=middle>

RE: Grizzly Bears
 

45HKUSP:
Can you tell me the brand name, and model of those sabotted slugs? I've been looking for them, as they recieved high praise, but have yet to find them in the local stores.

One more thing I forgot to mention on that moose job (oh no! Here we go again :) ). I did take some time (not counted in the 45 min), to move the moose into a better position with my machine.

Proving once again, that bears are not always afraid of machines.

Have any of you found this to be true as well?

RE: Grizzly Bears
 

Thaninator....now that you mention it, I do believe you and your .45min account of that moose. I witnessed a guy that butchers wild pigs and feral pigs for a living on a ranch. He can field dress a 500lb+ ferak pig that's hanging on a gramble hook in about 15 min. If he's in a race, he could do it in 10 minutes. He does it everyday....that's his living. I love watching him work. It's like magic with him, a knife and a sharpening steel.

So 45min is realistic. Especially since you said it was a sloppy job etc... It probably wasn't that bad at all.

Im fast with deer, but bear im slower. Elk im slower too. then again, i take 45min showers too. My wife hates me for being so slow...

I add...for those people that think a .44 mag can't take down the largest moose/elk or bear, i ask you this:...What were our early hunting forefathers using in the 50's when it came to handgun hunting, when the biggest handgun around back then was only a .44mag??? Don't tell me there were no handgun hunters back then that didn't try their [successful]luck with a .44mag. In 1955 Thompson/Center chambered a .44mag with a 14&quot; barrel. So I know that the gun was used on big game &quot;way back when.&quot;

Range is an entire different topic with the .44mag, I'll give you that. You have to pick and choose your shots a little more carefully with that bullet.

With today's modern day .44mag high performance bullets, the .44mag has more &quot;oomph&quot; than it did just 10 years ago.

Edited by - Hk45USP on 01/08/2002 03:31:49

RE: Grizzly Bears
 

Thaninator.....yes, i went down to my gun safe and pulled a box of sabot slugs out. This is what it is:

Remington 12ga 3&quot; magnum &quot;Premier Copper solid SABOT slug&quot;. It's actually a little hollow point, all copper. 100% bullet weight retention.

The muzzle energy is claimed to be at 1600fps, with 2381 foot lbs/energy. Sighted in at zero @50 yards, it drops -2.5 @ 100yds. However, I usually hit 4-5&quot; groups at 100 yards and rifled sights.

The lot number or &quot;index number&quot; for the rounds are: PR12MLS. That way your local gun shop can order them for you.

The penetration is insane. I shot a big 5x4 mule deer high in the chest, the slug broke some ribs, hit the spinal cord and went all the way down, breaking the back (length ways) and exited out the rear end. Massive damage. For a big grizzly like the ones you hunt, it would stop it cold. I've seen articles talking about it where it's been used on big big bears and moose and its the &quot;Mike Tyson&quot; of slugs. You gotta use a rifled barrel though if you want accuracy. It's no problem for me, I can switch barrels on several of my shotguns.

Hope that helps.



Edited by - Hk45USP on 01/08/2002 04:05:47

RE: Grizzly Bears
 

Heheh, Tha, you just don't get it, do you? Even a &quot;light&quot; 2 3/4&quot; buckshot load has way more stopping power than any .44 magnum round. Not to mention that the buckshot is more damaging to flesh than any single projectile I've ever seen used. Means I see much greaer internal damage and destruction of tissue with buckshot wounds then I even see with slugs.

About the Remington Copper slug, it seems to be right up there as a power slug along with the Brenneke and the Winchester Partian Gold. It would be interesting to put all these slugs to the test and see exactly which one has the most power and penetration against different hard and soft objects. I would put my money on the 3&quot; brenneke.

From Squirrel to Elephant, the Shotgun is your gun.

RE: Grizzly Bears
 

Blain; Could you share some of your big game hunting experiences with the shotgun with the rest of us? Thanks-memtb

&quot;A man has got to know his limitations&quot;, and test them often!

RE: Grizzly Bears
 

Blain, this isn't my expert opinion what I'm about to say. This is how it has been explained to me:

The SABOT slugs are made of 100% copper (with some alloy-mixes out there). The metal is much harder than the lead Brenekes or the Fosters. Since the lead is softer, slug &quot;upset&quot; happens more rapidly, thus reducing penetration capabilities as compared to the copper solid Sabot slugs. The Sabots also have a more slender &quot;body&quot; with a more aerodynamic shape to it, closer related to a traditional rifle bullet. Actually, the sabot slug looks like a miniature &quot;hour glass&quot;. Being copper, it doesnt expand or flaten out like lead.

Now, the Remingtons I mentioned earlier above, are actually cut with serations (four as I recall) and open up into a &quot;flower&quot; looking slug after it's struck its target. It's a very controled expansion that is really beneficial on large game such as Bear, Moose & elk.

I've used it on a 400+ lb feral hog and the slug went right through, taking a big chuck of &quot;pork&quot; out the second hole with it. Pig dropped like a buffalo getting hit with a train. I also have used my 416 Remington on pigs and an elk. It hits like &quot;Thor&quot; out of the clouds, but the sabot slug seems to produce more shock trauma on the animals I've used it on. I'd say using on dangerous game like grizzly, polar or even cape buffalo, would be a real &quot;blast&quot; (no pun intended).

With regards to buck shot. Yeah, anything is possible. However, me being in law enforcement, I've personally witnessed a pit bull taking two shots of 2 3/4&quot; copper plated 00 buck (12 pellet magnum version, not the 9 pellet load) and keep running!!! The distance was about 10 yards away.

I've also seen a blast of 00 buck (same 12 pellet load from Winchester, called &quot;Super-XX magnum loads) hit a human in the torso and the guy lived. The range was at about 15 yards. It knocked him on his a$$, but the guy lived to tell about it (in prison).

So, I'd be afraid to use buck shot on a big huge grizzly, unless I was close and hit him in the &quot;computer&quot; (head/face) area. Buck shot is only lead round balls, with a muzzle velocity of about a .357magnum. Hitting a giant bruin 9 or 12 times with a 357mag, but using just lead round balls to me is risky. the lead balls (buckshot) doesn't have the ability to expand or the wieght necessary to penetrate and break big bone etc... Let alone, first tearing through thick fur, hide, several inches of fat, flesh/muscle, and finally striking strong (bear) bone.

I'm sure it's been done lots of times, but it sure wouldnt be my first choice on a bear. Deer, yes no problem within range. Grizzly bear????not me. Maybe you're more confident and better than me with a shotgun. In that case, go for it. Whatever works for you. I've just lost a lot of faith after seeing a man and a dog (with two hits of 00 buck) live another day after sucking up the buck shot.

Hey isn't that why it's called &quot;Buck shot&quot; and not &quot;Bruin or Bear shot&quot;???? Don't think it was designed or meant to be used on large dangerous game.

Edited by - Hk45USP on 01/08/2002 12:42:10

RE: Grizzly Bears
 

Hk... I don't know what to say. That Winchester XX 2 3/4&quot; 12 pellet 00 buck load you mentioned is one of the finest on the market, the most powerful 2 3/4&quot; buck load... I am sorry but I have a hard time believing that of all things you shot a pit bull twice with that power load at that distance and it didn't die. What area of the pit did you hit? You know how they say shot placement is key, even a .300 mag wouldn't stop a pit if you didn't place the shot right. How spread out were the pellets, how the hell did the thing not die? I can't imagine it being a good shot, or hitting anything signifigent as a pit is a small animal and I use said 12 pellet load to do a number on large dear.

About the man I am also shocked that said buckshot load didn't kill him. Though I also must ask the same questions, where was shot placement, was the pattern spread out, what was the wound trauma like on the victum? Was the guy down and &quot;out for the count&quot;? Was he near death and only lived after being rushed to the hospital? Did the shot exit him or did it remain inside him, again much of the wound potential depends on how tight the shot pattern was. You would have thought one of those pellets would have struck something vital. I just can't believe that, I mean police agencies usually don't use such a powerful buckshot load. Who's idea was to use such a powerful one? Most use the 9 pellet standard loads of the 9 pellet reduced recoil loads. Funny thing is the recoil reduced loads have a better track record of one shot kills than any other type of buck, even the magnum ones. I wonder why that is. I speculate because the pellets at a lower velocity don't exit the body as fast and cause more shock trauma since they are in the body for alonger duration where as magnum shot will tend to just go right through a man not unlike a full metal jacketed bullet. So magnum buck would be best on bigger game than man where it can remain in the animal more and cause more shock trauma. Who can say, though I am still shocked out of my gord at what you hae said and don't even know if I can accept what you say... though I mean people have been shot and have lived from much more powerful rifles.

From Squirrel to Elephant, the Shotgun is your gun.

[Deleted]
 

[Deleted by Admins]

RE: Grizzly Bears
 

HK:
Love it...you can just see the look of shock on Blains face <img src=icon_smile_shock.gif border=0 align=middle>

Better have chased 'em down, and opened that dog, and that man up, and accounted for every single peice of buck shot, our you'll be accused of walking the thin line of fiction <img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle>

Seems to me that neither a man nor a pit bull size dog, has that much mass (especially when compared to a brown bear), and there for should be doubly suseptible to the effects of buck shot...if buck shot were effective.

I'd bet even money that if I'd hit them in the brisket with my .44 bear load, they'd be in a world of hurt <img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>

Edited by - Thaninator on 01/10/2002 02:40:37

RE: Grizzly Bears
 

Oh, geeze,,,here I go....Blain Blain Blain,,,

First off, I don't take the credit of those shootings as the one who actually &quot;pulled the trigger.&quot; I was never the shooter, only a witness to the dog getting hit. The other shooting, I arrived just after the shooting.

Lets see if I can answer all of your questions. You are correct about shot placement. With regards to the dog, the dog took the first load of 00Buck in the left shoulder area and legs. Yeah, the legs are not a vital area. But,,,the dog took (I'm guessing from memory) about 5 pellets in the shoulder area and around (another guess from memory) the first few ribs. The second shot was a shot where the pit turned slightly to run away from the first shot and took the second load around the mid-section on his left side, but half of the shot hit around the dog's rib cage area. I'm not a veterinarian, but I'd guess those were darn good shots. &quot;Timex-Dog&quot;,,,,took a lick'n and kept on tick'n.

The shot with the armed suspect was around 15 yards and he took as I recall around 8 pellets in the torso. Paramedics were working on him when I showed up. The guy was out for the count. As I recall, no pellets exited out his back, but I know he lived and has a colostomy bag (indicating that a pellet or two must have taken out some of his lower intenstine). I'm sorry, but I didn't get out a measuring tape to see where exactly the pellets made impact and/or exit wounds. All I know, he wans't hit in the hand, legs etc...It was a vital shot in the mid to upper torso.

The department that authorizes those powerful 12 pellet Winchester 2 3/4&quot; loads??? L.A. county Sheriff. We can carry those or 2 3/4&quot; #4 buch with 27 pellets (.24 caliber). Most go with the 12 pellet 00 buck (.32 or .33 caliber, I can't remember which one it is the that load).

I know you're shocked, but look at all of the NVA and Viet Cong soilders that lived after being blased by Claymore mines (several hundred pellets of buckshot) at point blank range...or any soilder living after stepping on a land mine and getting both legs blown off,,,or big car crash victims, or airplane crash victims, or stabbing victims, or gun shot victims with machine guns, or AK's, or AR's, or...or...or...the list goes on and on. Human and animal bodies are really wonderous things that can survive massive trauma and/or destruction of various organs and body part. AND.... live to talk about it.

You mentioned the reduced loads of buckshot...Actually, the performance record for reduced loads is not &quot;one shot kills&quot; as you mentioned, rather it's claim to fame is &quot;tighter groupings&quot; at longer ranges. For some reason, the reduced loads have a track record of tighter groupings further on out, as compared to standard or magnum 9 pellet or 12 pellet loads in 2 3/4&quot; shells. The dram equivalent in the reduced loads is generally &quot;3 3/4&quot; drams, unlike the magnum loads which is measured at &quot;MAX drams.&quot;

Heck, I saw a training video of a man taking a 12ga slug in the stomach (yes, not vital zone) but he still managed to run upstairs and barricad himself with heavy furniture before he died. I also saw (via Second Chance body armor company) a video reenactment of a suspect taking over 30 rounds of a 9mm at a distance of about 20 feet. He took rounds in the center of his chest, stomach, neck, etc....and he still lived to keep firing back. He finally died when the officer shot a round in his head.

My point is, people live through big, violent &quot;assaults&quot; on the body and internal organs. Look what happened to the two suspects in the Miami Metro/Dade FBI shoot out in 1986. Both suspects (Michael Platt and Bill Matix) took numerous &quot;fatal&quot; rounds in the liver AND heart with 9mm's, and .38's AND....HERE'S THE BIG ONE...00 BUCK SHOT, before finally BOTH being killed by one agent using a S&W .38spl at point blank range and head shots!!!!

Even thought the suspects took rounds in the lungs, liver and a shot in the heart, they still managed to pull the trigger of their guns (one being a mini-14) and kill several FBI agents.

There is no magic bullet or buck shot round.

I could go on to tell you the story of a local police agency out here (Anaheim, CA Police) about a suspect that took a .45ACP 185gr +P round to the head and the bullet just glanced off. He was killed by a sergeant using a .38. Same with another pit bull in my department (different incident than the one mentioned above about the dog) taking a 147gr 9mm to the head and darn near &quot;point blank range&quot; and just cause a nasty scratch with a ton of blood. The dog is as mean as ever today and hates people in uniform everytime a black/white drives by the house....it goes on and on.

As Jack Pallance used to say on T.V.: &quot;Believe it...or not.&quot;



Edited by - Hk45USP on 01/10/2002 05:26:12

RE: Grizzly Bears
 

USP:
And that's just with punny humans and dogs, imagine the difference between them and an enraged Alaska Kodiak Brown Bear!

That is precisly why the do not issue &quot;magnum buck shot&quot; to people who have to deal with these massive animals.

RE: Grizzly Bears
 

First of al those are extreme examples, for every failure like that there are over a hundred instant kills. Hell People have been hit by almost every type of caliber and lived. Lots much more powerful than a shotgun. I know of a girl who fell from an airplane 10,000 ft in the air and lived. The human body can be an amazing thing. Even though the guy lived through it he was down and out and most likely would have died without medical attention.

All I know is this...

If I hit them (anyone) once center mass with my 3 1/2&quot; 0000 buck load or my 3&quot; brenneke slug load, they won't get up...

From Squirrel to Elephant, the Shotgun is your gun.

RE: Grizzly Bears
 

looks like we are in for a camping trip on Kodiak..I will bring the camera as I sure as hell want it documented! <img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>!!!

RE: Grizzly Bears
 

Yep, we're gona tape it as part of my &quot;Buckshot for Big Game&quot; video.

From Squirrel to Elephant, the Shotgun is your gun.

RE: Grizzly Bears
 

Blain, question, how do you know that when you hit them with whatever load you are touting, they won't get up ?? do you have practical experience ? if you do it will silence these naysayers, if you don't it should silence you usahunter

RE: Grizzly Bears
 

Blain,

About six mouths ago, I suggested you do the burlap sand bag test with your buckshot. Have you done it yet? Based on the fact you're still talking about shooting Grizzly with buckshot, I'm guessing not. A broad head has more penetration than buckshot!

RE: Grizzly Bears
 

Well the 12 pellet 3 1/2&quot; 0000 buckshot load penetrated 21&quot; of wet phonebooks. That is a hell of a lot of penetration. Enough for a Kodiak or Polar bear if you ask me.

From Squirrel to Elephant, the Shotgun is your gun.

RE: Grizzly Bears
 

Now let me see if I understand what you said, 12 pellets penetrated 21&quot; into wet phone books, all 12? Everyone knows that a 44 mag has more penetration than bullshot, or whatever you said. If you hunt a brown bear with buckshot are you going to have a stunt double? Is Jeff Foxworty going to be the comentater? Got enough insurance?

Hunt smart, hunt safe

RE: Grizzly Bears
 

Blain,

Doesn't the fact that you are the only person on this board who feels buckshot is adequate for most big game tell you something? Doesn't the fact that buckshot is call &quot;BUCK&quot;shot tell you something? Deer - yes! Elk, Moose, Big Bears - NO! It's really a common sense thing. To suggest otherwise is foolishness. I typically agree to disagree. However, if someone's telling me the world is square, it's difficult to hold my tongue.