" Playing The Field" --- Do Your Skills Transfer?
09-08-2003, 12:33 PM
#1
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Rocky Mountains, Colorado
Posts: 1,964
" Playing The Field" --- Do Your Skills Transfer?
I thought about using " Promiscuity --- Do Your Skills Transfer" as the thread title, but was concerned about the PC police. Webster: Prosmiscuity - (formal) An indiscriminate mixing of elements. (in this case, rifles) hence the question---
Within the realm of scoped modern high power rifles [NOT iron sighted carbines and muzzleloaders]:
Some folks develop an " intimate relationship" with one scoped rifle and consider that as the best way to become an optimum performer. Others " play the field" with a fair cross section of scoped high power rifles. So, if one is a crack shot with one, then do you find that the learning curve starts all over again from scratch with each new or different rifle? Or is it the case of " give me any of the well-sighted in high power rifles out of the " stable" (new addition or old) and any pie plate within 200 yards is in some serious trouble!"
I' m thinking my skills with one DO transfer from one to another!
And, I' d say that even the little chicken pot pie plate is at risk!
First hand experience please, no anecdotal quotes or beliefs -- thanks!
Never Go Undergunned, Always Check The Sight In, Perform At Showtime,
EKM
Within the realm of scoped modern high power rifles [NOT iron sighted carbines and muzzleloaders]:
Some folks develop an " intimate relationship" with one scoped rifle and consider that as the best way to become an optimum performer. Others " play the field" with a fair cross section of scoped high power rifles. So, if one is a crack shot with one, then do you find that the learning curve starts all over again from scratch with each new or different rifle? Or is it the case of " give me any of the well-sighted in high power rifles out of the " stable" (new addition or old) and any pie plate within 200 yards is in some serious trouble!"
I' m thinking my skills with one DO transfer from one to another!
And, I' d say that even the little chicken pot pie plate is at risk!
First hand experience please, no anecdotal quotes or beliefs -- thanks!
Never Go Undergunned, Always Check The Sight In, Perform At Showtime,
EKM
09-08-2003, 01:08 PM
#2
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Moccasin, Montana
Posts: 1,835
RE: " Promiscuity" --- Do Your Skills Transfer?
I would have to say yes.I could go to my gun cabinet and grab any one of my 15 rifles and hit a pie plate at 200 yds.But are you asking do I play favorites? the answer is yes there is a revolving door on my gun cabinet,I rarely keep any given rifle longer than a hunting season,why I don' t know.I like to play around I geuss,there 3 rifles i have had since I was a kid and hundreds that have seen the showroom floor.As for accuracy I shoot them all very well,and have no problems with just grabing one to hunt,I have trouble with wich one.
09-08-2003, 03:42 PM
#3
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Rocky Mountains, Colorado
Posts: 1,964
RE: " Promiscuity" --- Do Your Skills Transfer?
BBJ,
When my boys (now 21) and I go out for a shooting session, it works best if there is some entertainment factor involved. The enjoyment of the trip and the learning process involved both seem to benefit if we " spice things up" a little bit. The typical session goes like this:
I HUMOR THEM --
First comes high entertainment for the " young at heart" :
Rip through a few clips of 9 millie or 45 auto in pistols. (25' to 50' )
Couple magazines of .223 through the Fifteen. (50' to 150' )
Optional: 25 clay pigeons each, hand thrown with the intent to make it difficult, 12 gauge trap loads
Transition:
Scoped 22 rifle -- off hand shooting at SMALL targets (like a plastic soda cap) at 50 to 100'
THEY HUMOR ME --
Then we start " reaching out" the distance a little bit:
.223 in a scoped Remington 788 -- Off hand, Braced, Kneel, Over The Knees (50 to 200 yards)
We burn up a fair amount of this stuff.
Then we " fill in" a little bit with something a little more " full bodied" :
.308 in a scoped Remington 788 -- Same as the .223 but fewer rounds
(I don' t care for it for big game but it is an accurate and fun little thing to practice with, as is the 223.)
Then at the tail end of the session we put a few rounds through the " big boys" at a range and style different from last time we went out (just write it on a card and throw it in with the muffs and glasses for next time):
338WinMags for them
375HH or 416 Rigby for me
It only takes a handful of rounds to " anchor" these, after you shoot and hit what you are supposed to shoot and hit, then what is the point? In fact if the first shot is " dead on" , then I praise them heavily, and I encourage them to stop right there, fixate on the accuracy of the shot, " bank away the memory" and stop.
I HUMOR THEM:
One clip of what ever they want.
=======================================
In Africa, with all other things equal, PH' s are typically fond of quail hunters -- they are used to being startled, shooting close, quick, accurate, and decisive. What is the connection between quail and cape buffalo? Nothing! What is the connection between quail hunting (light scatter gun) and cape buffalo hunting (big bore rifle) -- apparently more than one would think!
=======================================
I' d rather play the field. I think the skills cross transfer AND accumulate. IMHO, I think it sharpens you rather than dulls you.
Never Go Undergunned, Always Check The Sight In, Perform At Showtime,
EKM
When my boys (now 21) and I go out for a shooting session, it works best if there is some entertainment factor involved. The enjoyment of the trip and the learning process involved both seem to benefit if we " spice things up" a little bit. The typical session goes like this:
I HUMOR THEM --
First comes high entertainment for the " young at heart" :
Rip through a few clips of 9 millie or 45 auto in pistols. (25' to 50' )
Couple magazines of .223 through the Fifteen. (50' to 150' )
Optional: 25 clay pigeons each, hand thrown with the intent to make it difficult, 12 gauge trap loads
Transition:
Scoped 22 rifle -- off hand shooting at SMALL targets (like a plastic soda cap) at 50 to 100'
THEY HUMOR ME --
Then we start " reaching out" the distance a little bit:
.223 in a scoped Remington 788 -- Off hand, Braced, Kneel, Over The Knees (50 to 200 yards)
We burn up a fair amount of this stuff.
Then we " fill in" a little bit with something a little more " full bodied" :
.308 in a scoped Remington 788 -- Same as the .223 but fewer rounds
(I don' t care for it for big game but it is an accurate and fun little thing to practice with, as is the 223.)
Then at the tail end of the session we put a few rounds through the " big boys" at a range and style different from last time we went out (just write it on a card and throw it in with the muffs and glasses for next time):
338WinMags for them
375HH or 416 Rigby for me
It only takes a handful of rounds to " anchor" these, after you shoot and hit what you are supposed to shoot and hit, then what is the point? In fact if the first shot is " dead on" , then I praise them heavily, and I encourage them to stop right there, fixate on the accuracy of the shot, " bank away the memory" and stop.
I HUMOR THEM:
One clip of what ever they want.
=======================================
In Africa, with all other things equal, PH' s are typically fond of quail hunters -- they are used to being startled, shooting close, quick, accurate, and decisive. What is the connection between quail and cape buffalo? Nothing! What is the connection between quail hunting (light scatter gun) and cape buffalo hunting (big bore rifle) -- apparently more than one would think!
=======================================
I' d rather play the field. I think the skills cross transfer AND accumulate. IMHO, I think it sharpens you rather than dulls you.
Never Go Undergunned, Always Check The Sight In, Perform At Showtime,
EKM
09-08-2003, 05:09 PM
#4
Typical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Cedar Valley Utah
Posts: 977
RE: " Playing The Field" --- Do Your Skills Transfer?
The answer is yes and no for me. Shooting a rifle is like football. When I played in high school I learned how to play the game. When I went to college it was the same game but much faster. I used the same skills but not only did I have to adapt to the new level of play but I had get used to new teammates and their tendancies.
It just " felt" a little different. After all isn' t great marksmanship a whole lotta " feel" . I actually am very intamate with my favorite Smith & Wesson 7mm Rem Mag. I' ve been shooting since I was off the bottle so I' ve learned the skills and basics involved in accurate shooting. But nothing " feels" quite like that old 7 mag. I could probably pick up any gun and shoot it fairly accurately assuming its sighted properly but I' ll bet it would take 100 of rounds of practice for me to " feel" super comfortable with it.
I' d be asking myself " ok its sigthed for 100 yds but what will it do at 200 yds? 300?" I know it' ll drop but how much? How will the wind effect my bullet? I know it' ll drift but how much? If I was shooting at an animal I' d wonder how it would perform at different angles and ranges causing me to possibly alter where I' d place that shot. I would make me question whether or not I could even make that shot. How hard will this rifle kick and how will that alter my shot?
When I pull up my 7 mag there is no question my mind what it will and will not do. I know exactly what I' m capable of and what I' m not with it. Its automatic and second nature like a reflex. If you start thinking that you may not be able to make the shot then you' re already in trouble. Not only that but your bad habits will not show nearly as much with a 22 shooting at 50yds as they will with a 300 UM shooting at 300 yds. Different cartridges require more discipline or dare I say more skill.
So yes the skills transfer but the " feel" need for deadly accurate shooting at all reasonable ranges is re-learned with each rifle. Heck once you have the rifle picked out you also have to get the " feel" for the scope you put on it AND the loads you use in it. This is only learned through many rounds of shooting in a variety situations and at different kinds of targets using different kinds of shells. Whoosh, sure seems like a lot of work but man is it fun.
It just " felt" a little different. After all isn' t great marksmanship a whole lotta " feel" . I actually am very intamate with my favorite Smith & Wesson 7mm Rem Mag. I' ve been shooting since I was off the bottle so I' ve learned the skills and basics involved in accurate shooting. But nothing " feels" quite like that old 7 mag. I could probably pick up any gun and shoot it fairly accurately assuming its sighted properly but I' ll bet it would take 100 of rounds of practice for me to " feel" super comfortable with it.
I' d be asking myself " ok its sigthed for 100 yds but what will it do at 200 yds? 300?" I know it' ll drop but how much? How will the wind effect my bullet? I know it' ll drift but how much? If I was shooting at an animal I' d wonder how it would perform at different angles and ranges causing me to possibly alter where I' d place that shot. I would make me question whether or not I could even make that shot. How hard will this rifle kick and how will that alter my shot?
When I pull up my 7 mag there is no question my mind what it will and will not do. I know exactly what I' m capable of and what I' m not with it. Its automatic and second nature like a reflex. If you start thinking that you may not be able to make the shot then you' re already in trouble. Not only that but your bad habits will not show nearly as much with a 22 shooting at 50yds as they will with a 300 UM shooting at 300 yds. Different cartridges require more discipline or dare I say more skill.
So yes the skills transfer but the " feel" need for deadly accurate shooting at all reasonable ranges is re-learned with each rifle. Heck once you have the rifle picked out you also have to get the " feel" for the scope you put on it AND the loads you use in it. This is only learned through many rounds of shooting in a variety situations and at different kinds of targets using different kinds of shells. Whoosh, sure seems like a lot of work but man is it fun.
09-08-2003, 07:23 PM
#7
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Rocky Mountains, Colorado
Posts: 1,964
RE: " Playing The Field" --- Do Your Skills Transfer?
You' re right. Some folks shoot more on feel than others.
If I was going to push beyond 300 yards on out to where those " long range" folks were talking a few months ago (5/6/7/800 yards) where a " fine touch" is required, I' d probably gravitate to an " old faithful" especially since I don' t want to put $1,000 tactical scopes, bull barrels, and Jewel triggers on everything else; however, at 300 yards or less, with hunting rifles, and with Leupold glass across the board, it looks to me like..... the difference between " intimate" and " familiar" isn' t much!
223 - 050 gr - 3100 fps; +1.7 @ 100, 0 @ 200, -8.6 @ 300
308 - 150 gr - 2900 fps; +1.7 @ 100, 0 @ 200, -7.7 @ 300
338 - 225 gr - 2700 fps; +2.0 @ 100, 0 @ 200, -8.4 @ 300
375 - 270 gr - 2700 fps; +2.0 @ 100, 0 @ 200, -8.8 @ 300
416 - 325 gr - 2900 fps; +1.7 @ 100, 0 @ 200, -7.2 @ 300
---- ------- --------- ------------ --------- -----------
.................................... .3" diff... .0" diff...... 1.6" diff
Looks like these bullets all fly down the same string! Now add a critter the size of an elk and I do believe I am going to be other more important things to worry about than achieving 1.6" of intimacy at 300 yards.
Never Go Undergunned, Always Check The Sight In, Perform At Showtime,
EKM
If I was going to push beyond 300 yards on out to where those " long range" folks were talking a few months ago (5/6/7/800 yards) where a " fine touch" is required, I' d probably gravitate to an " old faithful" especially since I don' t want to put $1,000 tactical scopes, bull barrels, and Jewel triggers on everything else; however, at 300 yards or less, with hunting rifles, and with Leupold glass across the board, it looks to me like..... the difference between " intimate" and " familiar" isn' t much!
223 - 050 gr - 3100 fps; +1.7 @ 100, 0 @ 200, -8.6 @ 300
308 - 150 gr - 2900 fps; +1.7 @ 100, 0 @ 200, -7.7 @ 300
338 - 225 gr - 2700 fps; +2.0 @ 100, 0 @ 200, -8.4 @ 300
375 - 270 gr - 2700 fps; +2.0 @ 100, 0 @ 200, -8.8 @ 300
416 - 325 gr - 2900 fps; +1.7 @ 100, 0 @ 200, -7.2 @ 300
---- ------- --------- ------------ --------- -----------
.................................... .3" diff... .0" diff...... 1.6" diff
Looks like these bullets all fly down the same string! Now add a critter the size of an elk and I do believe I am going to be other more important things to worry about than achieving 1.6" of intimacy at 300 yards.
Never Go Undergunned, Always Check The Sight In, Perform At Showtime,
EKM
09-08-2003, 07:56 PM
#8
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Gunnison CO USA
Posts: 197
RE: " Playing The Field" --- Do Your Skills Transfer?
EKM: I guess that we might want to focus on the basic moral imperative: Regardless of the weapon, we owe it to our prey to be proficient with whatever we bring into the field. We all have different life situations and varying degrees of ability to have multiple weapons and the time to use/practice with them. I' m a bow/rifle/shotgun hunter (and occasionally slingshot) They are tools. If you work on vehicles, or perform carpentry, you have to be proficient with a variety of tools to get the job(s) done well. This means working with all of them frequently. Weapons are no different. ...and yes, I for one find that I get " rusty" with one or the other, except for high powered rifle which seems to be instinctive regardless of which cal. The slingshot is the real challenge...
09-08-2003, 11:08 PM
#9
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Brook, IN
Posts: 491
RE: " Playing The Field" --- Do Your Skills Transfer?
I would say yes, with two exceptions. I can grab any of my " do-all" scoped big game rifles,.270win,.308win,35whelen,etc and hit out to 200yards. I can do the same thing at 150 yards with my " brush" rifles .444 Marlin, .358 Win.
Now to transfet over to open sight pistol shooting 9mm,40S&W,.357mag,.38spl, etc I need a bit of warming up. Now with my scoped .44 mag I am good to 50 yards or so. The same goes with my peep sighted rifles I need a few warm up shots, this is why I don' t use them for shots beyond 50-75yds. When I say I need warm up shots I mean I need to start practicing earlier and more often if I plan on useing them for a hunt or shoot.
Shotgunning is different. I shoot totally instinctive. Infact the best way I can explain it is too watch a good basketball player shoot freethrows, he knows the moment he lets go if it is a good or bad shot.
Now to transfet over to open sight pistol shooting 9mm,40S&W,.357mag,.38spl, etc I need a bit of warming up. Now with my scoped .44 mag I am good to 50 yards or so. The same goes with my peep sighted rifles I need a few warm up shots, this is why I don' t use them for shots beyond 50-75yds. When I say I need warm up shots I mean I need to start practicing earlier and more often if I plan on useing them for a hunt or shoot.
Shotgunning is different. I shoot totally instinctive. Infact the best way I can explain it is too watch a good basketball player shoot freethrows, he knows the moment he lets go if it is a good or bad shot.
09-08-2003, 11:39 PM
#10
Boone & Crockett
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 10,679
RE: " Playing The Field" --- Do Your Skills Transfer?
Sure your skills transfer. But, with each " new" rifle there is a learning curve associated with it until you have shot it enough in all postiions and in hunting situations to become thouroughly famaliar with it and know exactly where that bullet is going when you pull the trigger no matter what the conditions.
Is your scope going to fog up or will the cross hairs move on you? Is that bolt going to get stiff and sluggish in extreme cold weather? Is that bullet going to impact in the same place at 30 degrees below zero as it did at 80 degrees above?
There are so many things that you just don' t know about a new rifle and scope combo that you would know with " old faithful" .
Take driving a car. I am sure that you know where every do dad in your vehicle is and every noise that it makes while driving down the road. Now get a new vehicle and sure your driving skills transfer but are you as comfortable driving your new car as you were in your old one. Probably not. There is that " learning curve" until you are famaliar with everything about it.
Is your scope going to fog up or will the cross hairs move on you? Is that bolt going to get stiff and sluggish in extreme cold weather? Is that bullet going to impact in the same place at 30 degrees below zero as it did at 80 degrees above?
There are so many things that you just don' t know about a new rifle and scope combo that you would know with " old faithful" .
Take driving a car. I am sure that you know where every do dad in your vehicle is and every noise that it makes while driving down the road. Now get a new vehicle and sure your driving skills transfer but are you as comfortable driving your new car as you were in your old one. Probably not. There is that " learning curve" until you are famaliar with everything about it.