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A take on outfitting the good and the bad.

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A take on outfitting the good and the bad.

Old 04-06-2009, 05:38 AM
  #1  
Typical Buck
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Default A take on outfitting the good and the bad.

I'll start with the good.

Taking out first time hunters and having everything go right making the outfitter or guide more proud than an brand new bouncy baby. Great clients good weather optimum conditions that make the hunt go just perfect. Seeing someone take the game they set out to get. High fives handshakes and the whole deal. Thats the best part of being an outfitter. There's nothing going to make you more proud of yourself or someone working for you. This for me bounces between 30% and 100% of the time. No one is a hunting god or a guru. I've always said I'll know everything there is to know about elk hunting when I'm dead. Thats what keeps my mind open and learning year after year when in the field. It's like a life time science project. There's a ton of good on hunts even if not successful. Making friends out of clients is the most rewarding thing not payments not tips not getting a rifle handed to you at the end of a hunt. Thats not why some of us are in the field. We life and breathe to hunt. And for some of us if we stopped Guiding tomorrow would probally end up hunting with friends just to be part of the awesome world of hunting. Generals will always have a soldier to teach and train. And in that belief we are the generals of the hunting world. Not to put down the ones that aren't outfitters because they are already doing that with their hunting buddies without the glorified title that only means something on paper. These are the great parts of what we do.



I can only speak for myself and what I've seen. Hunting on public ground with everyone else is not an easy task. I cheat as much as possible. After 20+ yrs of hunting in my area I have my spots picked out. I know where i'm gonna be at first light everyyear on anygiven season. I know where i'm gonna be if that gets spoiled and the next spot and the next. Maybe all in the same morning. You have to make your strikes precise and quick. Not everytime this will work. You must be able to pick up and move at the drop of a hat. Clients have to be like puddy in the hands of a good guide. Taking all they know and throwing out the window and letting the guide get you in amongst the elk to get the shot. Not trying to over think the judgement of the guide or think the guide is doing something to spoil their hunt. Everyone makes mistakes even veteran guides. If we were that perfect we'd have 8 world records and a team of staff looking for those animals for us. That's the TV version of a god hunter. I've seen people say that person is the best elk hunter in the world. Well bring him to my area and I'll teach an old dog new tricks and vice versa. A good outfitter is only as good as his equipment and knowledge of the area and the people standing there helping him out.

Here are the things that make hunts go bad for an outfitter. This might be a book but needed to be seen.

I'll pick on the outfitter first,
Outfitters over booking clients, and putting them into spots that may not be the optimum place for the client to be successful. This includes drop camps they are clients too.
A guide taking the client's word on how good he can shoot. You got to find this out yourself before the hunt begins.
Outfitters that break rules to get game, you have to be 100% honorable all the time.
Outfitters promising guaranteed kills. That's just crazy no one controlls the game unless it's in a high fenced area.
Outfitters that get greedy. Sure who wouldn't want to be on the cover of some major hunting magazine but lets leave that for the boys with the hollywood faces. Jim Shockey has became pretty famous but I still see the hunter in the guide if you know what I mean.
Outfitters do need to make camp life comfortable and a good experience. If the cook is bad get another. Very simple.
Bad outfitters usually in up with violations and no license eventually but it's the clients time and money to sort through the bad ones. Thats just sad.
Just because your John Q hunter doesn't mean your qualified to be a guide. You have to have people skills, equipment skills, and stock skills.
Outfittes do need to be smart enough to know when conditions are unsuitable either for camp life or hunting senerios.
Outfitters that refuse to take simple suggestions from clients are bullheaded and will usually end up spending more time sulking and arguing than actual hunt time.
It's a business profession not the right to make someone else's life miserable on their dream ofa lifetime.
To all the outfitters doing the best you can my hat is off to you. Its a damn tough job only a few will find rewarding.

Awww the client. Brings us to the other half of the hunt. I'm gonna pick on you boys too. Bad mout me all ya want but these are words not spoken often in good faith of booking clients.

First off if you have an idea in your head that a $3000 dollar hunt is gonna get you the next world record elk you better just stay at home. There's places to buy heads I've seen them all over the internet. Spend your cash, sleep in the ramada inn and go back to the office with your 400+ bull.
Book a hunt with a outfitter with the mind set you may not get the animal but the conditions and the adventure will be a memorable one.
It's called pay to play in the outfitting world and the odds are probally better the more money you spend. But that don't mean the smaller outfitters won't give you the best hunt you'll ever have.
Learn to research with forest and wildlife officals, just don't take the advice of a reference on the website.
Take those stars out of your eyes while booking a hunt. Read between the lines. I'm not a good sales man and thank god I don't have to worry about producing some promise of grandur that some make to clients.
Enough about the hunt bookings lets get on to what makes clients not get the game they set after.

Get your ass in shape. My god the numbers of people I have taken that can't make that half mile stock is just heart breaking. If you can't do it let the outfitter know and he probally has good places to sit that the game might get into range of your shooting skills.

Oh no I mentioned the word shooting. Opps my bad. Well here we go. Not everyone is a world class shooter. That's a fact. And I'd rather have bow shots at 20yds and rifle shots at fifty yards. But that don't always make a hunter get the game.

The biggest thing that breaks my heart about hunters. You show up with A brand new rifle, new scope, bino's and range finders that I'll never be able to afford. Your hunting equipment costs more than the wages the guides will make for the entire year. AND YOU HAVEN'T SHOT A BOX OF SHELLS THROUGH THE FIREARM. That is pathetic. Who would spend all that money on equipment, tags, and the price of the hunt to not be able to shoot when it's your time to preform? Guys come on now. This is about 30% of clients hunting with outfitters. I know i've taken them boys. Your wasting each others time. An your not being very ethical to the animal your hunting.

Elk hunting takes place usually on a mountain somewhere. Shots are not always going to be close. You rifle should be capable for shots up to 350yds or you odds just dropped by a bunch. You need to be able to deliver that when the time comes. Practice is what makes the end of the hunt a successful one. Bow shots at 60yds give me a break. You better have ice running through your veins. Your pulse rate by itself is enough to make that almost impossible. I never said anything about lucky. I know some men are capable of doing that everytime. But again that's not the average client. And bordering once again on unethical for the animal that runs away wounded. We all have lost animals but some push the limit over and over.

Clients that show up with doubt. A good attitude, respect, and faith will harvest more game than any secret honey hole on the mountain. Several times Elk have been harvested at the last moment of the last day of the hunt. You have to keep that faith and confidence right there to the end. Like the client I'd just as soon knock em down thefirst morning and go get the pack horses. But ......... it happens.

Don't blame everything on your guide. Like I said we all make mistakes but usually he knows the game and the area he's gonna usually make less mistakes. It really hurts when you know you screwedup a chance for a guy.

Don't take untested equipment into the field period.

Guides won't always see the game first. It's your responsiblity to be watching too not fiddling with your scope or you gps instead of watching for game.

Now I mentioned scopes it is your responsibility to remind your self to turn your scope back down when going into the timber after having up on full power looking at an animal. The guide might catch it but his mind is usually elsewhere into the hunt. This is one of the biggest missed opportunity situations i've come across. The other is being able to get set up and take the shot in mere seconds not minutes. Sometimes you will have to take that shot standing, kneeling or on your belly in the prone. I would advice becoming proficient at that. Hunting and bench shooting tend to be opposites of eachother.

Practice walking through the woods and not sounding like a lumber jack chopping down a tree. Pick up your feet and don't get lazy going through the timber.

Never uses scent controll and I chew. I've been close enough to gab elk in the butt with arrows. It's all about being stealthy. There is no point a to point b in hunting, never know exactly where that animal gonna be. Slow down and stalk. Bow hunting is the hardest holding hands and going through the woods is probally not gonna get you a shot. Sometimes you'll have to make the stalk on your own and all that money you spent will have you saying, hell i didn't need a guide for this hunt. haha

Have faith, practice shooting and self control, phyiscally and mentally prepare yourself for the hunt. Do your part let the outfitter do his. And in the end if it's still a horrible hunt then I can see where you have a right to gripe but don't start the hunt whining right off the bat. That's not the way it gets done.

Well I hope no one gets too upset but if you do then you probally on that list that needs improvement.

I know many won't read all of it but it's more like venting about the subject floating around lately. I feel better. LMAO






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Old 04-06-2009, 10:13 AM
  #2  
Spike
 
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Default RE: A take on outfitting the good and the bad.

Cherokee Outfitters,

Well said, I couldn't agree more, I've always used the phrase " don't guide the guide" let them do what they do, and the hunter vshould focus on what he needs to do.
I never base the experience of a hunt on weather or not I harvest an animal. As you said, it's about the hunt, the experience. One of my favorite outfitters I've hunted with twice, I've never harvested an animal with him. Not to say he didn't put me on some, I've passed on more than most people would have, but he is still a great outfitter and I still book with him, harvest or not. He's honest, hardworking, respectful, gives it 110% everytime, and never makes promises he can't keep.
Keep up the good work.

Dave
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Old 04-06-2009, 01:27 PM
  #3  
Nontypical Buck
 
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Default RE: A take on outfitting the good and the bad.

Well it's about time a outfitter spoke up around here.
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Old 04-06-2009, 03:40 PM
  #4  
Nontypical Buck
 
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Default RE: A take on outfitting the good and the bad.

Nice thread Cherokee. I've never hunted with an outfitter so I can't comment with first hand experience. But with over 30 years of hunting under my belt I will say this: if I spend $3000,4000 or 5000 dollars on a hunt I'm still not going to walk into camp expecting to "kill". I look for more in any of my hunting trips,harvesting an animal is just the bouns part of the hunt.God knows I've been on quite a few trips that I didn't kill an animal, but I still enjoyed my self just as much as on hunts that I did take an animal.IMO theres more to be had from hunting other than harvesting an animal.

Shooting skills,a whole other thing,why do guys shoot hard kicking magnums when they can't shoot the gun worth a sh*t is beyond me. Last I remember 270, 308 & 30.06 were very capable of kill an elk cleanly.SHOT PLACEMENT!!!

If I hunted with an outfitter what I would expect is clean comfortable accomadations a guide with a personality,that's gonna do his best to put you onto game & good food.If I got those 3 things I'd say I would have had a good hunt.
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Old 04-06-2009, 05:07 PM
  #5  
Nontypical Buck
 
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Default RE: A take on outfitting the good and the bad.



Good post! I'm not a guy that hires an outfitter. I never have and probably never will. However, after reading all the recent post on outfitters it was nice to get an outfitters prospective.

I've had the fun of teaching several of my friends to hunt. Let's just say some were easier to teach than others. I think the phrase..."you can lead a horse to water", may have some application in the outfitting business!
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Old 04-06-2009, 07:01 PM
  #6  
Fork Horn
 
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Default RE: A take on outfitting the good and the bad.

Well Chrokee;
I am an outfitter too. I consider myself one of the best at what I do. We take B&C heads often. We truly are 100% at lopes and 100% shot opportunity at deer. I have posted in here and it just seems to cause at least one out there to pick a fight with an outfitter. That only hurts the ones who are really trying to get info. I always hesitate to post simply because there really are a lot of folks out there willing to pick a fight with the big boy on the block just to try to strut his stuff. I am the most honest guy I know and I never lie. I try my very best to produce the best possible hunt in the style of hunting we do. I believe I am one of what I call the new breed of outfitter. A responsible ethical and conciencious guide and outfitter. That being said. I have heard of you by reputation. A good friend of mine who I trust explicitly has hunted with you on more than one occasion. He has a very high opinion of you and your outfit. I trust his judgement and I also was very impressed with what you wrote above.
Cherokee my man; you said a very good mouthfull above. I feel what you wrote is so spot on I would have a very hard time improving on what you said. Great job and I hope you don't get some bitter slob trying to pick apart what you said. As far as I'm concerned any one who would dispute anything you said has no credibility in the hunting world. I am very good at what I do and I am convinced you are too. It is an honor to know you and that there are others out there that put heart and soul into hunting. Thanks for that wonderful post Cherokee.
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Old 04-07-2009, 05:41 AM
  #7  
Nontypical Buck
 
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Default RE: A take on outfitting the good and the bad.

I consider myself extremely lucky that I grew up in a place where I didn't really need a guide and if fact grew up with guys who went on to be guides.
A couple of observations -

not every guide is world class either

the idea of shooting some average bull after spending $8000 plus on an elk hunt is rediculous

a guide service that goes out, purchases land owner vouchers, has a large herd of resident elk that have no interest in leaving that private property doesn't have to be much of a guide

theres no way in hell I'd be a guide, strangers with rifles who can't shoot have no place hunting anywhere around me
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Old 04-07-2009, 05:52 AM
  #8  
Nontypical Buck
 
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Default RE: A take on outfitting the good and the bad.

I've been on a few guided archery elk hunts and here's what I expect:

Outfitter:
- answers you gave me months ago should match what I find when I get there. Items like lodging, guide:hunter ration, guide experience, population and size of animals running around.

Guide:
- be a nice guy! We should get along, be able to chat and joke around when appropriate.
- Know the land. I don't hence the outfitted hunt, you should know where we're going, how to get there etc.
- Know the animal. I don't run into many elk around NH, so you should understand how to hunt em.
- Help me learn. I like being involved, I like to call too, help me sort it out.
- Don't give me crap if I pass on a shot I didn't like. Yes, my survey may say I am comfy to 50 yards, but if there's a 30 MPH wind, trees in the way or other things that make me uncomfortable, it's my decision to pass on the shot.

Me:
- get my butt in shape. I sit behind a desk all day and not at altitude. I need to be able to chase after my guide and possibly run up that hill after hiking for hours. When guide says "lets go" then we need to go!
- be able to shoot like I told you I could. Above says 60 yd bow shot, 350 yd gun shot. Yes that helps, but if I can't I need to be honest with you
- have a good attitude, it's a hunt, not a killing trip.

Everyone:
Enjoy the company of everyone!
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Old 04-07-2009, 06:05 AM
  #9  
Nontypical Buck
 
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Default RE: A take on outfitting the good and the bad.

All excellent post, guys!
Thanks!
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Old 04-07-2009, 06:49 AM
  #10  
Fork Horn
 
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Default RE: A take on outfitting the good and the bad.

I liked the information, I totally agree.
But, since we are being honest, the read was a bit difficult at times. Lots of mis-spelled words and such made it a little hard to read in a few places.
Like I said, I got the jist of the information, but would have found it better with the spell checker.
Good Luck BTW
Dandbuck
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