RE: Spider bull has been killed
 

MTdream my response to that is Hunters need to take their own trash out before someone does it for us. I'll side with ARA's anytime in that canned hunting isn't hunting at all and these stunts done with Spider bull aren't hunting either.

Thats right, you can read it again - I'll NEVER take the back of a fellow "hunter" when he/she does things that are anti-hunting in nature. What was done with the spider bull was anti-hunting

CAelknuts first off, thank you for taking the time in that response.

question - lets say you have hunted a specific animal for 2-3 years. Its late season and you finally get your opportunity .... and he's broken 1/2 his right side off. Do you shoot or not ?

As for me .... I shoot. Why ? Its the challenge of beating that mature animal on his turf for one - and you relate to that. Also, its the experience, the chase, the all encompassing HUNT and you relate to that too. In every way you've done everything the same as if he'd had a full rack ........ whats it matter then other than he won't score high in a make believe scoring system like B&C or P&Y ?

Do you shoot ?


I'm not your age, I'll be 40 next year. My memory sucks, but I remember shooting my first squirrell, I remember all the hunts with my buddy Mike when I was a kid, the fishing trips, calling in a bull elk, decoying in a antelope, the northern lights in Quebec ........ I get everything you say there about hunting.



that is where we differ, because I have been involved enough to SEE how people's actions affect everybody elses privaledges/rights. The actions of a few can ruin it all for the rest of us - do you agree with that ?

RE: Spider bull has been killed
 

To answer another of your questions, who knows what I'd do? I certainly don't. I was talking with the rancher from whom I lease hunting privileges for deer and turkeys near where I live. We got to talking about the bucks we've each shot on his ranch and he asked what kind of buck I'd shot last year. I informed him that I haven't killed a buck on his ranches for the last two seasons. He was stunned. It hasn't been for lack of opportunity, as last year I could have shot any of 45-50 different bucks. Same with turkeys, I could easily killed my 3 bird limit any of the last few years, but have only shot one bird per year. I used to always kill 3, plus one or two in the fall, but it just doesn't matter as much these days. What does matter is having quality time in the field. If I kill a buck, I don't have a reason to go hunting anymore.

Two years ago, I drew a mountain goat tag and booked a guided hunt with an excellent outfitter. We hada very nice late season hunt, in November. On the fourth day, our only good day weather-wise, we got to within 90 yards of a really nice billy. We also knew that he was with two other big billys, but we could only see the one goat. The outfitter told me he was going to sneak down the mountain a bit to look for the other billies, and that I should stay with this goat, and it was up to me if I wanted to shoot him or not. I watched that goat for over 8 minutes, and mentally I shot him many times, putting the scope on his shoulder and knowing that all I had to do was slide the safey off and give the trigger a gentle squeeze. BUT, I knew there was a bigger billy there somewhere, so I held off. The 3rd guy in our group was about 400 yards above me filming the action. He was beside himself when we met later, as he couldn't understand why I didn't shoot the billy since he was a very nice goat with great hair, and the big billy that I wanted was in his viewfinder also, about 40 yards from the other goat, but hidden from my view by timber. Finally, the goat I could have shot walked off, and I never saw them again. The next day a storm blew in and my goat hunt was effectively over. It was a long drive home, and more than a few times I wondered why I didn't shoot the billy when I could have. It was an excellent hunt, and he was a fine trophy. I wanted the bigger goat and didn't get him. Mind you, we're talking about maybe 1" extra horn length and some mass, that's all, but that is why I waited.

If you know why I passed those opportunities up, then you probably know what I'd do if confronted with the situation you outlined. As for me, I have no idea what I'd do. Possibly, I'd just take his picture and say, have a great fall, big fella. Either way, I'd walk away satisfied and know that I had a good hunt.

As for your final comment, I don't really agree with it all that much. I don't think my actions affect anyone else's rights or privileges. I do think that slobs affect all of us negatively, but I also think that cynics such as yourself do us more ofa dis-service than you do good. I think that unethical slobs are the anit's best weapon to use against us, but I'm not sure that people such as you are that far behind them, as I think you're a willing cooperator with the antis, at least in your loathing of other hunters who don't do things the way you believe we all should do things. I don't belive in complaining and outlining what others who hunt do wrong, I try to spend my energies positively influencing kids who are getting into the sport, or taking other people who don't have the opportunities I've enjoyed, but who might love to go and share in some of the many great experiences I've been blessed to enjoy.

In closing, over on bowsite, wedebated one time about sharing, or not, a campfire with each other. I said that I wouldn't care to share a campfire with you, and I meant that. You countered by saying that you'd welcome me to share your camp anytime. Perhaps so. If I ever came across you out in the woods and you were in need, I'd do anything for you. If you were out of gas, I'd help you, if you were sick or hurt, I'd help you. If you needed food or shelter, I wouldn't turn you away, I'd help you. Hell, if you had a bull down and truly needed help, I'd probably help you then as well. BUT, if all was good, there just isn't any way that I'd ever care to share an evening around a campfire with you. We're very diametricly opposed in how we view hunting, and I suspect, most other issues related to our society. I go hunting to experience some of the best days in my entire year, having positive experiences. I've never viewed you as a positive person, or someone I'd care to stare at flames with. No offense intended toward you personally, I just wanted to elaborate that I think you and I are two very different people who would not ever be even slightly compatible.

RE: Spider bull has been killed
 

CAelknuts if you didn't know me as stealthycat I bet we'd have a fantasic hunt together

I come across as negative because there is a lot of negativity in hunting in today's world. All the ARA movements, the lawsuits, the bans on cougar hunting, bear hunting, dove hunting, canned hunting, the loss of hunting areas, fewer and fewer hunters in todays world, the outrageous costs of non-res tags ......... we're getting killed as a hunting community and I can tell you 100% for sure that if you explained how the Spider bull hunt went down, every non-hunter out there would be disgusted with it because even though they don't hunt, they KNOW what is fair chase and what isn't and what happened with the Spider bull went too far.

Where you and I differ is that when I see a guy driving an ATV up and down the roads hung over from a night of drinking trying to road shoot and fill his tag, or some guy paying $1500 for a fenced deer or elk kill, or hiring a dozen guys to scout the animal so they can shoot it at opening light ........... I'll stand up and say thats not hunting, the ARA's don't think it is, the non-hunters that make up the majority of people don't think it is and most hunters don't think it is either ........ and I'm NOT going to side with someone on anti-hunting actions just because they bought a license and wearing camo.

There is a line between hunting and killing ........ soemtimes that line is clear, sometimes its blurred, but one thing is for sure, over that line is NOT a good thing for my sport and I'll call it what it is every time and I'll not apologize for doing it.

RE: Spider bull has been killed
 

I've really enjoyed these last few posts. Ialso feel that the divisions amoungst huntersopens up the biggest weakness toour sport. To me it comes down to whether the individuals involved are following the law or not. If they are not following the laws andregulations, they aren't a hunter, they are a poacher. If they are following the laws and regulations, they are a hunter.

There are so many controversial issues like private vs. public land, non-resident hunters, outfitters, supplemental feeding, baiting, passing on younger animals, etc. that if we split along each issue we would be hopelessly divided. I say if it is legal in your state, then go for it. I might not feel the same way as you, but if it is legal I'm not going to condemn you for following your state's game laws.

I personally don't think that I could get any satisfaction out of hunting inside a high fence, but that's just me. I'm not going to condemn someone that does it. Most high fence operations are actually well run and in some cases with 1,000's of acres under high fence are even close to fair chase on some animals like whitetail deer, but that is an entirely different argument.

If you go back through this thread you could find folks arguing that payingonepenny for any information that you could use to your benefit would make you an anti-hunter. Others say that a reasonable amount spent for an outfitter is okay, as long as you stay under what they see as a reasonable amount. I saw calls for the end of non-resident hunting, even some folks saying that spending more than a week hunting is wrong. We had another thread going that was somewhat toungue in cheek that was saying that using a rifle to hunt elk wasn't considered truly hunting.

Each state has the right to set their laws and hunting regulations the way they see fit and as long as you follow them, you are a hunter.

Oh well, I don't think there will be a winner to this argument.

RE: Spider bull has been killed
 

CA your welcome to my campfire ANYTIME!!!!

RE: Spider bull has been killed
 

lord have mercy! looks like he could'av pushed over afreight train with his brow tines alone. If Denny took a month to find and kill this bull, he put his time in. Congrats Mr. Austed.

RE: Spider bull has been killed
 

Not getting into the argument-don't feel qualified as I know nothing of this bull,just want too see pics of him. Got a link?

RE: Spider bull has been killed
 

mossback.com

RE: Spider bull has been killed
 

For several reasons I like the quotes. And own the book.

Keep up the great posts.

Kevin

RE: Spider bull has been killed
 

wrong - legal doesn't make ethical, never has, never will

RE: Spider bull has been killed
 

dude you have some rage and bitterness issues...

learn your enemy, we are not him....try a little more honey, not so much vinegar...

RE: Spider bull has been killed
 

ethical and legal don't even belong in the same category. Each person has to decide what their "ethic standard is",but each person doesn't get to decide what is legal, or illegal. Some things are unethical and unlawful. But I can't think of one thing that is lawful but yet unethical!

RE: Spider bull has been killed
 

I can. I consider hunting from a moving vehicle unethical, yet it is lawful in texas. The trouble with ethics is they arepersonal beliefs and each persons are different.

RE: Spider bull has been killed
 

Personally, I'm not motivated by antler/horn size in my hunts. I have taken does as often as bucks on my deer and pronghorn antelope hunts (1 pronghorn hunt -- I took a doe). For me, hunting is not about the racks. I would not object to going on a guided/outfitted hunt, provided I am not hustled into a different kind of hunt than what I prefer. I like the idea of riding into a more remote area and having a cook make breakfast and dinner and to have a guide cut up my meat for me and haul it back on a horse. Notwithstanding, all my hunts so far have been do-it-yourself hunts and I have always butchered/packaged my own meat. I like the satisfaction of do-it-yourself hunts. It is a lot of work, however, and I confess to being beguiled by at least the idea of paying to have someone else do the hard work and just doing the fun part myself.

I guess my summary view of the guy who got the big rack is (1) if you don't measure hunting success by rack size, it doesn't matter and (2) if you do measure hunting success by rack size and you have already gone very far down that path, then you probably already know that it is a $$$ game. If you don't have the money, you aren't going to get access to the best lands to hunt pronghorn antelope; if you don't have the money, you aren't going to get access to the best lands to hunt whitetail deer; etc. Therefore, why begrudge a guy with more money getting to the big rack . . . as it is just a matter of degree not of kind.

RE: Spider bull has been killed
 

RE: Spider bull has been killed
 

This is a never ending argument.

RE: Spider bull has been killed
 

Just when you think you are at an all time low. Someone goes even lower. Not only a completely inappropriate picture and caption, but some extra obsenities at the bottom! :(

RE: Spider bull has been killed
 

I went to report that offensive post, but see that someone beat me to it. There aren't many things that truly offend me, but that post by windog1 certainly does. Take it down, and the sooner the better.

RE: Spider bull has been killed
 

We finally agree, totally classless and useless post, Windog1 you are a tool.[:@]

RE: Spider bull has been killed
 

actually, many "hunters" ARE your enemy and I'll tell you how/why

everytime one of your "fellow" hunters goes offroad on his ATV he chips away at the public's perception of hunting. every "fellow" hunter who beer's it up before the hunt, trespasses, poaches, shoot before he know his target etc .... they're ALL tossed into my sport of hunting and I HATE it - you damn right I do

everytime some "hunter" buys a big bull, shoots an animal in a pen, baits with 20 tons of apples, tosses up 12' high fences etc etc .... it all reflects negatively on my sport

MY SPORT - its mine, I take ownership of it and I have no qualms about the trash we have in it and its my opinion we're long overdue to haul it out


My enemy is anyone who is anti-hunting and I'm telling you, things like what happened with Spider bull ARE anti-hunting, they're everything hunting isn't and they were done all for horn porn, doing things and trying things that while legal were all done trying to take away the things that make hunting what it IS- they're not hunting, non hunting, against hunting ..... they're anti-what hunting is


3 point on one side rule in Arkansas

Today a young forkhorn comes by dragging its left hind leg, heavily infected, a young buck in terrible pitiful miserable condition.

Illegal to shoot .... unethical NOT to shoot that buck and put it out of its misery.


=======

18" Rianbow limit in the river is the law

you gill hook and land a 17 3/4" rainbow and its a dead fish no doubt.

Illegal to keep it .... unethical to waste it because its a dead fish already, keep it and not waste the meat


I can give you quite a few more ethical vs illegal scenarios if you'd like ?


I 100% believe it degrades my sport and hurts my future sport of hunting


If I thought it didn't negatively affect my sport I'd not care - but every non-hunter that reads or heard about Spider bull will puke and they'll hate hunters and hunting for it

RE: Spider bull has been killed
 

Stealthy you are reaching. You are a sportsman not God. Nature can be both beautiful and cruel. The balance of nature must be allowed to occur. When man gets involved it upsets what is supposed to happen. Every wild animal that dies other than by gun shot probably dies a painful and lingering death. Just because you see the limping deer doesn't give you the right to kill it under the guise of being humane. I do agree with you that commercialization has impacted the sport and often taints the proud heritage. Unfortunately that falls in line with society in general and fight it as you will… it won’t change.

RE: Spider bull has been killed
 

I don't entirely disagree with you on this point. I will say that if this gets you revved up, however, and evidently it does, there must be a GREAT GREAT deal about hunting and hunters today that gets you upset. How do you feel about automated feeders? Food plots? Trailcams? I just try to ignore it -- because it is clear to me that I cannot change it -- and pay attention to my own hunting and try to take pleasure in doing that in a way that gives me satisfaction.

RE: Spider bull has been killed
 

Good point and post Alsatian.

RE: Spider bull has been killed
 

You are way off base here. The people doing those things are not hunters and we need to do a MUCH better job letting the non-hunting public know that. If they are breaking the law theyare criminals, not hunters, and should be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law.

You have a ton of "I feel" and "I think" and "I believe"comments in that last diatribe. I'm glad you can read everyone's minds because I've actually mentioned the new world record elk to several non-hunters and showed them the pictures on the internet and their general comments were more along the lines of "WOW" and "HE's HUGE" and things like that. Not once did I hear - "that makes me want to puke and I hate hunters for what they did to that poor little bull" even when I mentioned that the guy probably ended up paying $250,000 to hunt him. Notice I said "hunt" him because until the bull was on the ground there was always a chance that another hunter could have closed the deal on him instead.

I'm glad you can play judge and jury on whether an animal is going to make it or not though. With the horrible trail cameras that folks are using now it is amazing how some have documented how injured animals are able to survive some unbelievable injuries. Broken legs, huge gaping wounds, etc. that you see healing up over a period of weeks and months. The laws are there for a reason, they should be followed.

RE: Spider bull has been killed
 

I am a Hunter. This is neither apology nor boast. It is simply a fact. I'm glad of it, immensely grateful, in fact-but constantly humbled by the burden of responsibility it imposes on me.
Many of my most meaningful experinces happened while afield. Almost everything I like about myself goes back, one way or another, to hunting. On the other hand, my most shameful failures were during hunts too-so hunting has contributed to whatever moral maturity I might have attained. I could never have been so succesful a biologist, so passionate an environmentalistor so thoughtful a writer had I never ventured into the wild as a preditor.
Kevin Van Tighem from "Home Range"- writings on conservation.

I too am a hunter, an unappologetic trophy hunter.
If what is so disscusting about this entire episode in not appent.............I can't explain it to you.

RE: Spider bull has been killed
 

Came across this on Monster Muleys...thought i would post here...

It is Denny Austads son who is writing it...



". This is certainly not "high fence" hunting in an enclosure...­ go check out map of the area in Utah, start looking at the terrain, and dense trees and downfall, and raw square miles. Since it was my dad, I am probably biased (how's that for randomness of blogs folks, I don't even hunt, I am just searching for pictures too since I got word from Mom on the success tonight. Something about "over 500").
Was Mossback guides a help in finding this bull, absolutely. Was donating to the State of Utah in a live fund raising auction to get the "Governors tag" a help with flexible dates and long season, not deniable. Does that make it "fair"...­ I don't know, it is the system presented, and Dad only seeks the best at this stage in his life, be it wine, hunts, or salmon with green chile cream sauce.
But easy, fenced, come-and-go hunt,...not the case. After the 1st two weeks of straight hunting he came back so tired and he had to rest another 2 weeks before going out again. Also recognize that Dad spent months building the rifle used, his own personal design and unique caliber. He has a passion about all aspects of the hunt and preparation. He fires more practice shots in preparation for a single hunt then most do in a lifetime of hunting. 3 months of "training" and lost 20+ pounds to make sure he could out climb the guides. You should watch him gut and dress an animal (not letting the guides do it cause they don't get as much meat as he does), all the major organs saved and used for his dog if we can't eat them. Filleting fish, the same way, never seen his equal on efficiency and minimal waste.

Would it be nice if 1st time hunter got this bull. Well that is certainly the "root for the underdog" ethic in US, and would be cool story. Both Dad and I would smile in amazement, and have another glass of the grape. But instead, a poor boy from Mankato, Minnesota who has hunted and fished since he could walk, donating to old folks home what he could not eat as a young boy, and is now a self-made millionaire, donating his own forms of business advice and community service, trying to pack in as many high-end hunts as remains in this life (after winning the battle on...­ never mind this is too personal and over the top...­). But you know, with a fine California Cabernet, that is a nice story too. He will even give you a bottle or two to take home, very tasty stuff I might add.

Eccentric? yes. Everyone's cup of tea? Maybe not. But Easy? No. Ethic of Hunting (with a capital "H" for those that read his old "Three Peat" article in Trophy Hunter Magazine)...­ well that's a lot lot higher bar then just a "fence discussion". But if that is your binary test, it still an easy leap. Yes.
The one good thing about your overly harsh post is that having discussion on "raising the bar" on hunting ethics (respect for the land/landowner, the animal, the clean kill, the meat, gun safety, drink after the hunt not during)...good topic. I hope this will result in a higher fence in this "standard" discussion within the brotherhood of the fraternal order of...­
Hi Allen --thanks for the link, do you read this blog? You need to get back to the west. This blog stuff is to disconnected...
Wayne."

RE: Spider bull has been killed
 

I disagree 100%

I am a sportsman BY God's will, I am a steward for all that He's given us. Its my opinion that its 100% wrong to allow suffering when you can stop it.

legal does not make ethical


legal was what happened with the Spider bull and look how wrong it was.


I can change things, and yes, there is much wrong with what hunting has become and if it isn't righted, we'll lose it

how naive .... you cannot disassociate yourselves from them

then you didn't tell them how it went down, because if you had, no way they'd agree with you I'm 100% confident of that

Laws have many reasons but like I've already shown, they do not make right and wrong, ethical and non-ethical



exactly



Denny Austads son ...... I would not expect him to write any less but I saw much that was written that affirms to me this wasn't hunting. What is legal is not what is ethical and doesn't define fair chase regardles and thats the opinion I hold.

Pandora's box has been opened for a while now, this Spider bull is just another something that has come out of it.

RE: Spider bull has been killed
 

then you didn't tell them how it went down, because if you had, no way they'd agree with you I'm 100% confident of that



It would certainly be interestingto hear (but I donot want to read it here)how the two of you would show pictures to others and explain the story of this hunt. I can almost guarantee that if a person heard the story before seeing the pictures, they'd never know they were being told about the same elk. One guy would say "check this elk out, let me tell you about him." The other guy would say "Here's an example of everything that is wrong with hunting, what a travesty." You each color the perception of the non-hunting public that you talk to, think about what you want them to come away with. This is part of why I say that Stealthy is one of those who damage hunting, he can't wait to tell others about anything that he perceives to be wrong. He views himself as the thought and ethics police, judge, jury........and executioner.

Different people view this particualar elk and the hunt for him, as well as some other prominent hunts, in different ways. Some view them in a negative light before the hunt even takes place. Others are interested in those same hunts and can't wait to see if the hunter scores, and if so, how big of a buck or bull he got. I didn't see the guys who were hunting this bull all that often during the twelve days I was hunting up there, but I don't think a single other person posting on this saw them at all, not once. What I'm trying to convey is thatI didn't see themhunt any different, or much different, than many others up there.I saw some thingsgoing on up on Monroe that bothered me, but I didn't see Mr. Austad or the Mossback crew doing those things. They were other guys who were DIY hunting, just like me. I hunted differently than most others I saw while on Monroe, but that was my choice. I had a one time tag, and was going to hunt the way I do, and enjoy every minute of my time up there. That is and was nobody else's business unless I wanted to share it with them, which of course I did do with hundreds of others on bowsite and monster muleys. If you ever read those posts, you'd see things in a positive light, without all the negativity that is being posted by a few on here.

Stealthy doesn't want to "get it" that he's one of hunting's threats. He could be an ambassador for the sport, he obviously loves it and I expect that he's probably a highly ethical hunter. But, instead of telling others how great hunting is, and sharing the experiences that make it so great; he can't wait to tell people about everything he thinks is wrong with hunting. If you doubt me, just read any or all of his posts on this subjector just about any other. Negativity runs through 95% of his posts. I don't remember who the poster is that made the post that I quoted at the top with Stealthy's response, but I imagine that guy tells people about the positives of hunting and doesn't bias others toward focusing on the negatives like Stealthy does. Contrary to what Stealthy thinks, almost nobody in the non-hunting public knows anything about this bull, and most of them probably don't care, as long as the hunt for the bull was reasonable and nothing too "out there" occured. I think that most reasonable people who don't hunt would find this hunt OK if they heard the details, it's other hunters who seem to have such a problem with it. So, the perception of a non-hunter is going to be formed in part by how a hunter talks about the hunt for any of these governor's tag hunts. If you're positive in your presentation, they'll be positive. If you're negative, then they'll be convinced that it was bad.

This will be the very last post I make on this topic, as I'm tired of debating it, and especially with Stealthy. What some of you don't realize is thatStealthy thrives off these debates. He'll lure you in, and then incessantly debate what is right or wrong. If you care to debate him, you always have to take the positive side, becuase he always claims the negative. Along the way, he'll demonstrate how he and his view of how things should be done are "the way" and how others who don't do it like he does are from the Dark Side. Eventually, these discussions become nothing more than circle jerks, which is probably what he's seeking anyway. He's lured me in before, but nowadays I try to just stay involved long enough to amuse myself and make a few points for people to consider and then go away. Some of you might be willing to entertain him longer, and if so, I'll pray for you. ;)

RE: Spider bull has been killed
 

I'm anti-hunting? I mean my SIDES are hurting that's so funny.

CAelknuts I'm not the only one that thinks what happened with the spider bull pukes. You read MM don't you? A heck of a lot of people hate what happened over there too, and many here do.

If you don't take a stand on what is right and wrong, especially for our sport of hunting, you're worthless to the next generation that might not even HAVE hunting.

I make positive posts, but yeah, I'll hammer every post I see that's unethical and anti-hunting because speaking out against those things is saying no, I'm not accepting it, I won't condone it and it doesn't belong in my sport.

CAelknuts I'll fight for hunting nail and tooth. You sit back and do nothing, that's fine. At least I can say I made a stance on what is and isn't hunting, I took a side, drew a line and I can defend to the core what I believe.

I think that means something

RE: Spider bull has been killed
 

I don't subscribe to the "we all must stick togather" theory regarding hunting. I know crap when I see it, and this whole spider bull scenerio highlights the worst in hunting plain and simple. I really don't know what to say to folks who are not disgusted by this dog and pony show. What I do know as that I will NEVER stick by high fence "hunting" etc. Another thing I don't understand is this "their not hunters" when talking about poaching etc. What, they are hunters until they break the law then suddenly they are not hunters? That might be a convienent separation for hunters, but not an accurate one. I also believe that the commercialization of hunting poses a much larger threat to hunting than does the Anti-hunting community. Until honest debate ishad over these issues, threads like this are fairly meaningless.[&o]

RE: Spider bull has been killed
 

Have you ever read your own writing? bolded some of it for you...

lots of conjecture and opinion from a keyboard jockey who has no clue what really happened...lots of throwing stones when you are merely a third person twice removed from this whole thing...

this kind of jumping to conclusions and quick to judge is the very thing that leads soooo many people down a bad path...anytime I see this kind of villainous treatment of someone on the net I am oft reminded of the age old wisdom of "take the log out of your own eye before you take the speck out of someone elses"


Sorry, I am really out of this thread now...it has fully run its course...but has been atleast mildly intriguing...sad but intriguing...

RE: Spider bull has been killed
 

MTdream

if it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck and walks like a duck .....

RE: Spider bull has been killed
 

I believe the commercialization of hunting is killing the sport, plain and simple. I know many BC outfitters who arrive in the business young, motivated and true hunters. After a few years they start tying upaccess to private land or access to public land to make the hunting easier.
Start spotting all their game from aircraft and doing anything to make the game easier.Face it the local competion makes it a bit tougher to make a quick buck........so easier means lower cost and good for business.
I know many jurisdictions demand non residence to use an outfitter. It is up to these hunters to holdtheir outfitter to a higher standard. If they have an airplane....be sure they have already tried to locate your game before you arrive..........illegal-maybe not , unethical-difinetly in my book.
What I find interesting about all the new business of hunting is I do not ever remember hunters asking for all this.
What hunter ever asked the government to legalize fenced huntings?

RE: Spider bull has been killed
 

you can search it on yahoo and find a pic, its pretty amazing

RE: Spider bull has been killed
 

I didn't read through all the post on this thread but I really don't care whoSHOT the Spider bull. When you put a crew of guys out there all looking for the same bull can you really call it hunting? I would rather kill a 5x5 with my bow by myself than kill a big bull like that with the help of so many people. Is that hunting? No, thats just someone wanting to be the SHOOTER of a reallybig bull. Just my$0.02

RE: Spider bull has been killed
 

CAelknuts--- "For those who are interested, good pictures are now posted on Mossback's website. You can view them by going to www.mossback.com"

I find it interesting that CAelknuts promoted mossback in his first few posts, defended them soheroically, he was actually in the area during the hunt, and was a new member... Geee I wonder if he works for Mossback? I'll give my first hand experience at how much people in Utah dislike Mossback. My friend drew a late season elk tag in the Beaver Utah unit. Our first evening while we were eating dinner at a resturant in Beaver the manager at the resturant noticed we were wearing hunting clothes and came to our table and asked us if we worked for Mossback. We replied that we did not. She asked if we were lying to her and we better tell her the truth. We replied that we did not. She said good and that if we had worked for them she would have kicked our butts right out of her resturant. Apparenltly it's their new policy to not allow any Mossback people in their resturant. I've heard all the stories of "Road Blocking", etc... from good friends of mine that work for the fish and game and BLM and receive these reports every year. My impresson of Mossback is they are idiots, period.

RE: Spider bull has been killed
 

And the jealousy abounds in this lengthy discussion. The guy could afford a governor's tag, got the tag and killed a monster bull. End of story. Who cares who he hunted with, the damn bull is dead at his hands. Anyone of us with the money would go after those same tags...and don't tell me you wouldn't!!!

Unbelievable how childish people get over things like this...Dan Agnew's kill inWashington on a governor's tag drew the same nasty responses from people...it never ends.

Sorry gang...this just frustrates me, the ends to which people go to discredit others.

I'm off my soap box now!