John B,

You help me prove my point better than I can do myself.

You, in one paragraph, blame yourself for a poor shot on an animal by placing the round in a spot where it is totally inadequate as far as penetration.

Then, in the next paragraph, you blame your weapon for being underpowered???

So if we are going to compare arguements to arguments, like you did about comparing stands or scent control to long shots, I guess we can compare this scenario to " People don' t kill people, Guns kill people" .

I am sure it was totally your weapons fault that you pulled the trigger after placing the crosshairs on the wrong point of entry.

This sounds like an example of " A poor workman blames his tools."

Am I saying that a 300 yard shot is too far?? It must have been for this case, because a poor decision was made before thought, and the trigger was pulled, wounding an animal.

What if you would not have caught up with this animal???
Was it in a pen, where you were certain to catch up to it?
What if you tried this shot on that same animal at 800 yards??
Would you have even attempted to catch up to it at all??
How many times has this gone on in the name of production of a show?? It must have gone on some, this is by your own admittance.
Every response or scenario you put in your threads, makes me have more and more doubts about the type of hunter you are.

Why were you carrying a rifle of his caliber during an elk hunt??
I know this weapon can kill very large game, but what if you had shot it with your larger caliber weapon?? I am sure it would have penetrated the shoulder, and put down the animal. So, is your reasoning just to take a weapon small enough to harvest a coyote(good eating there?) and not to tear up the hide?? Or were you concerned about that at all?? If you weren' t concerned, why not take a rifle that would do adequate damage to both, where the shot placement (shoulder)was the same?

It is situations like these that proves my point to where there is too much human error that is not factored in when taking these shots. This wasn' t a " long ranger" by your standards, but it proves my point that that same shot attempt at the yardage in question, is greatly increased.

When you say " to each his own" or " it' s a personal thing what you get out of your hunt" , I hope you got a great thrill in some of those misplaced shots you said you have on film, but won' t show on your program to show the results of bad shots to everyone.

Don' t want to make the spon$or$ upset, now do we.........

Txhunter58,

I use custom rifle that I built so I can’t give you an exact cost because I only pay for the components and do all the work myself. Now that being said I don’t think you have to have a custom built rifle to make shots at longish ranges. I would be quite content with a rifle that shoots honest 1 MOA 5 shot groups. (1” @ 100 yds, 5” @ 500 yds, ect). My personal rifle will shoot 1.75” @ 200yds all day with the 150 gr XBT. This level of accuracy will never miss if it is pointed right.

A lot of Factory rifle will do as well but of course not every one. In factory guns I have the best luck getting a shooter in either 7mm Rem Mag (my favorite) or 300 Win Mag. I feel that rifle accuracy is not the most important thing.

Range finders boil down to one choice right now: The Leica 1200 Costs about $475. Don’t try and get by with a shorter-range version if you can help it. You may not think you need 1200 yds but it will be much more reliable under poor ranging conditions (bright sunlight and non reflective targets).

Your scope is probably more important than your rifle. The scope has to track reliably to allow you to adjust for different ranges. All my scopes are Leupold Vari X IIIs. Some other brands work well, I have seen the Weavers do good work for less money, but I think Leupold is the best overall. A 41/2 X 14 should cost about $500. I send mine off to Premier Reticle and have a target turret installed on the elevation and a custom reticle with windage dots. I have also used the Stoney Point Target Knob with complete satisfaction.

It is hard to beat the Versa Pod bipod for a gun mounted bipod and they are less expensive than Harris. We also use the Stoney Point Steady Stix when a prone position is not useable.

I think it would be hard to have a good setup without having at least $2500 in it. The big variable is the rifle and that depends on how fancy you want to get. There will also be a substantial amount spent on data development and practice. If you are going to get maximum performance I think you will need to handload. Now we start talking about all the equipment required for handloading and you can see that to do it right requires a substantial investment in equipment and time. I think the rewards justify the expense but everyone will have to make that determination.

Not easy and not for everyone.

We are working on a 3 video set explaining how to get the data and set up the equipment. Hopefully it will be done this summer.

Thanks for your well thought out responses. Keep being skeptical

Jjt,

Good job guy. I wish some people who talk about ethics worked at it as much as you do.

MinnFinn,

Thanks for your input.

Ritche3

I started to answer your questions but your unassailable logic overwhelmed me. I will have to live with the knowledge you have found me lacking. I am sorry.

Your Buddy John

GleninAZ,

I never did answer your truly great question as to “why??”. Of all the issues brought up this is the one that is the hardest to reply to.

I can demonstrate to anyone in person that the shots I am talking can be made with regularity. Why someone should want too is much harder to explain.

Shooting an elk at long range does not have the same feel as one in your face that is bugling so hard your ears start hurting. There is a feeling of accomplishment though that comes from a different place. It comes from all the homework done on the range and then applying it in the real world. I love to shoot rocks more than anyone I know but it is not the same thing as using the skill I have learned for real.

I don’t expect this is going to sway your opinion but it is the best answer I have.

No, I am not handicapped (at least not physically). The shot about losing some pounds struck a little close to home though. Kind of harsh don’t you think? Ha

Thanks for your time

John

John-For a retard you certainly are a gentleman. I have picked some good fights in my life but you just ain' t bitin. Oh and I' m a little fat for 53 and just started working out again so I don' t die turkey hunting. If you get to Arizona I' ll buy the beers. Good luck.

" I think it would be hard to have a good setup without at least $2500 in it"

That is about what I expected.

Well, that just eliminated 95% of the hunters out there (including me). And there will be a lot of people with a $600 total package trying 800 yard shots. Still have to come down on the side against it.

Another question. How far would a 5 mile an hour crosswind blow your bullet at 800 yards. Most people would hardly notice this breeze and figure that it would not affect the zero that much. Would it? Not to mention canyon downdrafts, updrafts, and crosswinds blowing harder at 400 yards than what you are feeling when you take the shot. Just too many variables for 95% of hunters.

I have a feeling that with you at my side with your years and years of experience, I could probably make the shot with your coaching. But get me out on a mountain by myself and throw some variables in, and I am likely to blow it.

I realize that most of the problem would lie in that I don' t practice enough. Which brings up another interesting question. Where do you suggest that the average hunter go " often" to practice? It is hard to find a range that even has targets futher than 100 yards in most areas of the country. I realize that it is easy in Wyoming, but in most places that would be a real challenge.

That' s it for now. Thanks for stretching our minds. This conversation is much better than the norm: " Is a 270 (name your caliber) enough gun for elk?" etc.....

John B:
Please read what i posted on the deer hunting thread if ya hav' nt already. After reading every post & reading your answers i find that im even more excited about your tv show. I hope i can get it on my local cable company & i think it would be an excellent way to expand this sport
Thanx again
Mike

I' ve stayed out of this thread but I think I' ll add something finally. Mr. John B 45, you stated earlier, " had very little problems keeping them inside a 10 inch circle at 600, 750, 850, 1000 yards" .

I got to thinking about this statement and did some checking. Here are quotes of what I found. In regards to 1000 yard groups shot at Camp Perry where scopes are allowed. " The record for the 1000-yard match where scopes are allowed is 200-15X; 15 shots inside the 10-inch diameter 10 ring; the others inside the 20-inch 10 ring." Further in regards to benchrest competition. " At 1000-yard benchrest matches, the typical group size of each relay' s winner, and the match winner, is 8 to 11 inches." " And remember that 1000-yard benchrest groups that set records are the smallest fired, not the average." " Don' t forget that Skip Talbots few-inch group with a 50 BMG followed a
24-inch one. Rifles don' t shoot their smallest groups all the time, just rarely."

Now you expect me to believe that you and your friends with thier hunting rifles " had very little problems" doing better than benchrest shooters best groups?
You shouldn' t have a TV show! YOU should be building benchrest rifles and teaching those poor shots how it is really so easy to do!

Ok guys hate to burst your bubbles but there are a number of guys here in PA that do this every year for deer. They set up on logging and forestry roads glass the mtn across from them and then decide wether to shoot or not. They take shots from 500 yds. to over 1200yds. I have done it myself took a doe at a little over 700yds. first shot hit just to the right of her second in the neck she dropped in her tracks. So yes it can be done and is every year here.

" First shot hit just to the right of her."

Dale, you make our point better than we could! What if the first shot had wounded her instead of missing her entirely? I would bet that you HAVE wounded more deer than you know. " Oh, I missed another one, at least I think I missed."

Thanks for giving us a real world example of why we shouldn' t be shooting at that distance.

txhunter58 are you stating that you have never wounded a deer or will not ever just because these guys want to shoot long range doesnt give you guys the rights to be dick heads, so if he wants to shoot long range let him, if someone wants to not believe in god thats their loss, a believe and the way you live is something that you choose not others, can we get a moderator to kill this post plz it is headin in the wrong direction, people are attacking other peoples way of doin things and thats just not right

just another thing i bet more deer get wounded a year by bow hunters than by long range rifle shooters, im sorry but its probably true