Wolves: Tell Me Again Why It Was A Good Idea.....
 

Wolf pack kills 22yr. old man!

http://www.outdoorlife.com/outdoor/hunting/article/0,19912,1168298-1,00.html

I'm sure the enviros and the pro-wolfers already have their "spins" written up....

Yes, but this and ....
Yes, but that.

Grand dad and his generation cleaned up this mess in the lower 48, but then someone had this great idea....

Yes, but this and ....
Yes, but that.

RE: Wolves: Tell Me Again Why It Was A Good Idea.....
 

Elk,
I had this discussion with a freind several years ago,my family and his family have gone back generations here in Montana back to the mid 1800's.

And like he said,"There was a reason why they killed them all"

They are preators,and opptiunistic at that,when a easy meal is provided then thats what they eat.I don't care if this pack was used to humans,or garbage.They showed a threat,so get rid of them.I belive where this guy was killed there was a simalr attack a few years ago,dose anyone remender the rig worker who was walking to his barracks when he was attacked?He defended him self with a stick,and when the wolf attacked he put it in a bear hug,and held on till help arrived.I'm pretty shure this was the same village.
BBJ

RE: Wolves: Tell Me Again Why It Was A Good Idea.....
 

I heard a story from a credible source last year about a guy who was elk hunting here in Wyoming when a pack of wolves surrounded him on a trail and starting moving in on him. He only got away by shooting at the wolves with his rifle and driving them off. I figured it was only a matter of time until someone finally got killed by wolves and proved wrong that wolf lovers' claims that wolves will not hurt people.

We can start making the wolf situation better as soon as the feds pull their heads out and approve my state's wolf management plan. In all of the feds' arguments against Wyoming's dual classification system that lists wolves as predators aboutside of the recovery area, they conveniently fail to mention that the majority of the members a panel of highly qualified wolf experts all agreed that the dual listing was fine and would not threaten the sustainment of a healthy wolf population in Wyoming. And the panel was hired by the feds! By siting the dual classification system as one of the reasons they won't approve our plan, the feds are essentially claiming to be smarter than the top wolf experts in North America. What a joke.

P.S. For those of you who have never heard of these reports here a link to them. http://gf.state.wy.us/downloads/pdf/...eer_review.pdf

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Elk, It sounds as if your beef to the wolves are that they killed someone and now they should be eradicated "again"! I'm not what you would call a "wolf lover" but I am a proponent to all the things that make up a "wilderness" including animals that can kill humans. I believe in a healthy ecosystem which to me would include a healthy population of "huntable" predators within it. This would also include the grizzly, the black bear, and the cougar, which have all killed humans in the past and will again. I don't think the feds introduced the wolves in the right manner but I do believe the right sub-species of wolvesshould bein our western wilderness areas as a "huntable" population.I think we are all better off, spiritually,when we are not at the top of the food chain.

RE: Wolves: Tell Me Again Why It Was A Good Idea.....
 

because once the elk, whitetail, moose and mulie season is over you can hunt wolves, cougers, yotes and what ever predator that comes into your sight:)

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It really is laughable the mentality of the wolf haters. Actually it's jut really sad.

I guess this world would be one big feel good place if we just killed off all of the predators so we could have all the omnivores all to ourselves.

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EKM. Careful there. Your gonna hurt miss Fonda's feelings.;)

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BB, going thru the70s, 80's, and early 90sI didn't sense that I wasin a "spiritual desert" becauseI lacked wolves inmy life, did you?Seriously?

Did you enjoyColorado's prestige of having more elk than anywhere else on earth? Would you like to see that continue? Just a thought, because the dinner bell is ringin' and company is coming.

James, don't worry I won't loose any sleep over Miss Jane.

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No, I have never been in any spiritual desert because of a lack of wolves either, or any other animal, but I would like to have some wolves around but I am certainly not thinking like the government does concerning the reintroduction.

You absolutely can not have an apex predator like the wolf and not control their population. This is exactly where all the controversy is coming from. It was a big cluster @#$% from the beginning and was never done right and still isn't being done right.

RE: Wolves: Tell Me Again Why It Was A Good Idea.....
 

bigbulls, no offence but your crazy to want just a few wolves around. You lived in Colorado for 2 years, and now you are back south somewhere correct? Idon't know how much elk hunting you did duringyour two years in Colorado but I can betyou money you will look back on those days as glory days if the wolves get a strong hold in Colorado. I don't know a serious elk hunter in Idaho who likes them. And you can bet your butt I know a lot of elk hunters.You might think I'm selfish and want all the elk for myself. Well that's partly true because I want elk aroundin the long haul.Even the folks at goverment levels are starting to get realy worried about theproblems the wolves are causeing. Our grandfatherswere right to get ridof them in the first place.The area I hunted in central Idaho was a meca for big bulls and a lots of elk. Gone is those days until the wolves are killed off. Yes there are still elk around but few and far between compared to what it used to be. Contrairy (sp?)to what tree huggerswant you to believe the big mature bulls are the first to be killed off by the wolves. After the rut these bulls are warn outand in need of rest and nurishment.Most seek shelter alone and try to pack on a few pounds for winter.This condition makes for easy pickings for a pack of wolves.Many many of outfitters have gone out of business because their are simply not enoughmature bullsaround. If you don't belive me or the facts you are being stubborn and unwise. I am just one of many who speak these same things over and over again. Say what you want but I feel its sad you don't wake up and smell the roses, and see the truth.

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He may get to see what wolves can do. CO is considering drop-shipping wolves into Rocky Mtn National Park. Tons of food, full protection from hunting, can you say by-by elk!!!!

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Man, they must have some real geniuses in CO too! Not only do they have Alaska for and example, they now also have WY, MT, and ID too. Whatever floats their boat.

RE: Wolves: Tell Me Again Why It Was A Good Idea.....
 

I live in northern MN and they Brought back the wolves here too. I cant stand the critters. They come thru in packs here and if you see wolves you dont see deer they sure put the fear of god into the deer. The DNR tried to tell us there isn't that many but I beg to differ. Theres times when its getting dark and your walking back from your stand and they light up a clear cut kinda makes the hair on the back of your neck stand up when your a mile away from the truck with only a bow. If you look the next day you will find a trail down a logging road about 3 feet wide and solid wolve tracks so theres more then a few.We never use to see them but the last few years we have seen alot of them, which in my mind tells me they are multiplying at a rapid rate or becoming less shy either way I dont think it is good. every were you find wolve tracks you find there scat and its all got deer hair in it. Sure we are over populated with deer but for how long will that last if the wolves become even more abundant. I dont mind a few but they do need to manage them.

RE: Wolves: Tell Me Again Why It Was A Good Idea.....
 

I gotta admit I am tired of the wolf issue. Don't get me wrong I try and let my voice be heard at any public meeting where public opinion is asked but I'm flat tired of debating about it. I've realized that as hunters we can all be pretty stubborn in our convictions and sitting here bashing on each other or even debating it is basically pointless.

To me we once killed off all the wolves....that tells me they can be controlled. The problem with wolves in my opinion is all political. The way the reintro happened was a joke and the managment, or lack there of, is the major problem. Wolves are a problem in many areas. SOMETHING NEEDS TO BE DONE!!! I am not a proponent of erradicating the wolves I think they have a place as long as we manage them for the elk and deer herds to be healthy....blah....blah...blah....

Doesn't matter what I think. What's important is we all have a common ground here and that is that the Fed's have stuck it to the West the reintro and won't let us manage. We all agree on that. It's hard for my friends in Idaho to like wolves when they run hog wild, predate, and have no control. Once you give them power to do something about it the hatred will probably dwindle over time. Who knows but at this point it wouldn't matter all that much what happens to the wolf, because in my state when a real presence shows up if the wolves start being problematic most of us will just take the initiative to take a few out.

RE: Wolves: Tell Me Again Why It Was A Good Idea.....
 

Interesting point.... I don't think I would hate them as much if I got to shoot them now that I think about it. Guesse that means I will have a big load taken off of my shoulders once I finally kill one, or two, or a whole pack.;)

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I can't wait for this!!! Let's see if it will really happen.

http://www.localnews8.com/home/2402006.html

RE: Wolves: Tell Me Again Why It Was A Good Idea.....
 

rather be huntin is right on. I agree. They were crammed down our throats, and we were basically told to live with it.

RE: Wolves: Tell Me Again Why It Was A Good Idea.....
 

I hopped back into the archives and picked up on one of my favorite stories:

In 1995, when Canadian grey wolves were being captured to send down to Yellowstone an old feller in Hinton, Alberta inquired of the rangers, "So what are you boys up to?" The rnagers responded, "We're capturing these wolves to send down to the states in an attempt to establish a viable population in a few areas down there."

The old man shook his head and grinned, "So those folks down south, do they know what they are getting themselves into with these here grey wolves?" Defensively the rangers replied, "What do you mean?" The old man continued,"Oh, the wolves will get established down therealright and they'll do just fine. Rich land, moderate climate, lots of livestock, plentiful deer and elk; those folks are going to end up with more wolves than they know what to do with! Now whose idea was this again?" Things got quiet, the rangers walked away, "radical" one muttered, "rancher" said the other.

http://www.huntingnet.com/forum/tm.aspx?m=254231&mpage=2&key=Alberta&# 613414


Then here was a 6 pager FROM 2 YEARS AGO...

http://www.huntingnet.com/forum/tm.aspx?m=618395&mpage=1

At this time of these threadsmany were pro-wolf and some half pro-wolf (they were confused) and an adamant group of us who were anti wolf. What is amusing to me is the former two (pro-wolf and half-wolf) were hoping the same hopes I hear hoped for now.... the fed's are going to relinquish control, there is going to be a hunting season, management to the states.... uh huh, uh huh, uh huh, .....that could have been written TODAY.

In the mean time, what has happened?
** The wolves? They been a multiplying and they been a spreading. (Enjoying those elk chops)
** The pro wolf folks? More attention to their cause all along, the coffers are getting fuller. Plus now they are suggesting wolves as a solution to overpopulated elk areas like Estes Park (Rocky Mountain National Park) where of course there is no hunting allowed. In other areas eco-wolf tourism is catching on with folks bringing in some serious dollars.
** The concerned rural public and hunting community? Well.....

From the fed's perspective:
"Heh, heh, heh they are taking our "stalling program" very well, begrudgingly, mumbling and griping, but overall they are takingtheir medicene very well.... all we need is just a few more years, just a few more years....

If it wasn't so tragic, it would be funny.

RE: Wolves: Tell Me Again Why It Was A Good Idea.....
 

Idaho, I have lived in Colorado for about 10 years and moved to Alabama just last year for work and have been hunting in Colorado for about 15 years.

Guys don't act like I am advocating having a population of wolves and let them go unchecked. That is absurd and that is the reason so many places are having such a problem with them. In no way would I want wolves reintroduced anywhere with out a good, well thought out, plan to control their numbers as they grew and then to have the plan put into action. This should have been done before a single wolf was reintroduced to any state and it should have been one of the conditions of reintroduction. Wolves absolutely must be controled and they are controlable if the right plans are in place and enforced.

The people that live where they have been introduced have every right to be pissed off about this delima cause the way it is currently being handled it has become a huge angry hornets nest. The government, in their infinite wisdom, basically said .... Here have some wolves. Hope you like them. That's not the way it should have been done.

RE: Wolves: Tell Me Again Why It Was A Good Idea.....
 

Another thing, when wolves drasticaly reduce deer and elk populations, The anti hunters will not suggest killing the wolves, Instead they will pressure the states to cut back or CUT OUT hunting the deer and elk. Hunting will no longer be considered a harvest to keep populations of game in check. The anti hunters have got to love this farse.

Also the wolves are not going to go hungry. They will turn their attention even more to livestock. OR WORSE. I am not anti wolf but if there will be no control on their numbers then its gotta stop. At some point, ranchers are sure not going to put up with them. Nor should they.

RE: Wolves: Tell Me Again Why It Was A Good Idea.....
 

The wolves are coming and there is nothing you can do about it. One wolf already killed near Idaho Springs, and now a sighting near Walden. It is just a matter of time.

Your best bet is to hope they increases to manageable populations quickly so you can hunt and trap them.

I don't know about the wolves, but I like girzzly bears, and would love to see more hunting opportunities. There is nothing like facing down the great bear when you are out there along.

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James,

Aint it a M*'er when one realizesthe hunting andWestern rural community (both minorities) have almost been played right into the"point of no return"of a very well thought out and well constructed chain of events? There were massive appointments to the USFW, USFS, and BLM during the Clinton years and those folks march to an entirely different drummer that previous generations, a drummer that is not sympathetic to the hunting cause at all. There have been massive retirments of the old corps both on time and early retirements (the later because they couldn't stomach what they saw coming down the pike), and these "new" folks are rising thru the ranks fast. The anti-hunters gotta love it all right, it is partly their hopes and plans thatare coming to fruition. Many of them firmly believe that hunting will be "eradicated" within another generation and they are hard at it to make sure thingsstay on or ahead of schedule. While this may sound "radical" (remember the Hinton, Alberta story), actions speak louder than words. Why are we seeing federal agencies head off in one direction when common sense lies in another? Actions speak louder than words or promises.

I believe that is an accurate prediction of what will happen food chain wise. However,your posthints that ranchers are going to risk felony time to single handedly stem the tide. These are mostly family men with much to lose. While they may pot a few on the side (SSS), I doubt they will rise to the level necessary to remedy the situation.

And so it goes. Just a few more years. That is all that is needed. Justa few more years,and then with the attainment of acritical mass, the chain of events will be in motion. And inspite the of allowing future "token harvesting" so folks will feel good about it, things will roll forward. Now imagine this.... a Clinton-esque president is elected to the Executive Branch (which has direct control over the USFS, USFW, and BLM; except funding)in 2008. A really distinct possibility with the way Iraq, the Patriot Act infringements, and corruption are playing out in American's minds.

Elk hunting is a lot like a chess game. Some times you learn the most when you get beat and then you make sure you cover that base next year.
In real chess, I've learned a lot playing folks who beat me like a drum and then I had the benefit of applying those lessons to future games.

Problem is, on this deal, there is likely to only be one game played....
Photo safari anyone? My camera is better than your camera. The minimum camera forelk should be a "whatever"...... don't quite carry the same salt.

That's 'bout all I have to say about that. We'll see in another 2 years (2008).

RE: Wolves: Tell Me Again Why It Was A Good Idea.....
 

Excellent post EKM. The federal government is slowly stealing game management from the states and turning it over to the whackos. If this persist, in 20-30 years elk will be managed by wolves, and hunters who once bought tags OTC, will be in drawning if there is a season at all. From a rational approach, can we ask why the wolf was re-introduced? What is the purpose, what is the end? There is no reason to re-establish the wolf. What are we supposed to do next, tear out all the highways, bridges, buildings etc? This fallacy of "returning the environment to nature" is silly. Heres a question, to what point in history do we return it to? Pre-civil war, pre-Colombus? If we have technology to bring back dinosaurs why not do that? At some point we need to move foward and except the idea that this isn't a place for the wolf anymore, and that there is no reason other than the appeasment of environmental whackos.

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muley, that's a dangerous way of thinking IMO! When will it be timeto "except (sp) the idea" that there is no place for the grizzly anymore, or the cougar, or the black bear for that matter? I think the feds are doing a terrible job of re-introduction of the wolf but I do believe the wolf belongs there in a manageable population. Sure they will prey on elk and deer but if the wolf population is kept in check with hunting then the population of prey species can withstand it. The elk population now needs to be fed on feed grounds to survive the winters. We have forced them to live in areas that historically held few elk, as written in thejournals of Lewis and Clark.

I don't think it's a question of returning to acertain point inhistory as muchas it is an effort to keepall the "pieces to the puzzle"! At what point inthe futuredo our grandchildren say that we "screwed up" by notkeeping morepieces of the puzzle!It's easy for us humans to bash the predators, it's beenprogrammed in our brains. We used to killbirds of preybecause they killed our chickens!We still killsnakes because they may be poisonous! We killspiders because they are the cause of nightmares! We kill sharks because they bite people!Etc. etc. etc....

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Hunter59, with all due respect, did they feds dump the wolf in your back yard? When did the USFWS transplant wolves to central Illinois? I'm here, I see and hear themcritters every time I hit the woods. Who are you to tell me I have to have wolves here because you back there want to know they're out here? Have you seen what has happened in Gardiner, MT?heck withthe wolf, we have lived without them for many many years, and we don't need the worthless mutts here now. We sure don't want or need any Grizzlies in the Bitterroot range either. Like it or not, man is the Apex predator and at the top of the food chain and nothing is ever going to change that. What may change is our ability to exercise our position on the food chain. You still have failed to give a valad answer as to why we need to re-introduce wolves and why we need then here.

RE: Wolves: Tell Me Again Why It Was A Good Idea.....
 

Why don't you guys quit blaming the wolf and start directing your anger to the people that are the real cause of the problem. A manageable population of wolves would not be any problem. People in charge of this letting them go unchecked is the real problem.

And BTW, man is not the apex predator on this planet. If anything we are simply equal with all the other apex predators and we see them as competition for food. Which just goes to show your selfishness toward wildlife.

The dinosaur was not killed off by man like the wolf was. The dinosaur became extinct due to natural causes. Apples and oranges.

This place isn't for the wolf any more? At some point in the worlds future this place ins't going to be for any wildlife any more. At somepoint there is going to be too many people taking up too much space to have any wildlife roaming around as competition. Does that mean that we should just accept that there isn't any room for any wild animal in our future and kill them all now. That's pretty much what happened to the wolf. There wasn't any room for the wolf and man to coexist so we killed the wolf off.

It's amazing how the native Americans held such a great respect for all of wildlife and somehow were able to coexist with them but we want to kill them off so we can have everything to our selfish selves. Oh, but we killed off most of the Native Americans too didn't we? And the buffalo, and the elk, and the deer, etc... Seems that we killed off pretty much every animal that we ever came into contact with. I sense a common theme here.


Again, it's really just sad the way some of you think and I truely feel sorry for you all.

RE: Wolves: Tell Me Again Why It Was A Good Idea.....
 

To fear wolves is laughable.
I have been around wolves my entire life. Yesterday my wife and 6 month old baby and I went for a walk on some frozen skidoo trails around home. We enjoyed seeing many tracks of squirrels and hares, also lynx, martin and coyotes. We saw both moose tracks and several of the wonderful beasts themselves. We also followed the fresh tracks of 5-6 wolves as they checked out the moose.We seem to have lots of wolves and game too. This is not unusual, but the norm in most wilderness situation.
By the way hunting wolves is a heck of a lot of fun to boot and hopefully you in the western states will be able to find that out for yourselves soon.
By the way our 90 lb husky along for the trip posed a much greater danger to us than the wolves.

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Now, that's an interesting attitude to have about a man who was killed and partially eaten by wolves. When you die and go to heaven, why don't you look up Kenton Carnegie and see if he would like to have a real nice laugh with you about the wolves! I've been with an ambulance service for over thirty years now and the most common comment from patients (if they can talk), wether it be an amputation, fracture, or a bear bite is "Gee whiz! I just can't believe this happened to me!" I fear for your children.

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Tangozulu. You said the magic phrase. Hunting wolves is fun. Thats not an option here yet. Its the wolves 10 and the hunter zero. Like BB said wolves would be fine if they are controled in numbers. That may or may not happen before its to late for big game populations.

Its not a fear of wolves, its a fear of out of control wolves wrecking the elk and deer populations. Its clear as hell thats its happening RIGHT NOW.

EKM. you are right, ranchers probably won't risk everything to control wolves but if it helps, and thats a big if, they will be outspoken group for change and an will help hunters with this cause. Its true also about the new generation of G&F. One more Clinton in charge is the last thing we need.[:@]

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To say that man is not at the top of the food chain is laughable, and shows a total lack of understanding of the natural world. Man is soooo far at the top of the food chain that no other animal even compares. BB your theory that man will leave nothing left in nature is one of the stupidest most vain comments I have ever heard. We are but one big rock from outer space from being wiped from the face of the planet. Yes BB, we tried to kill off everything even the indians! What a crock. Has it occurred to you that animals and indians are still here? Despite all your nonsensicle ranting you completely failed to provide a valid reason why the wolf should have been re-introduced here.

RE: Wolves: Tell Me Again Why It Was A Good Idea.....
 

The point is your mentality toward the wolf and wanting to kill them off so that you can have elk, deer, etc... all to yourself is exactly the same reason they were killed off to begin with and exactly the same reason that we are even talking about this now.

Man leaving nothing in nature is exactly what you are talking about when you talk about the wolf. It begins with one animal and picks up steam from there. You specifically stated that this isn't a place for the wolf any more becasue of the way man has encroached on wildlife with its roads, bridges, etc.... Eventually man will have encroached enough on wildlife to the point that all animals will become a nusance. Given the technology that will be available in the future there will be no need for any of wildlife to exist any more. We will simply need to move foward and accept that. It starts with people like you.

I have a hard time understanding how I am being vain although I can completely see the selfishness behind your comments.

Yes the animals are still here but they woudn't be if people like Rosevelt hadn't stepped in and done something about people such as yourself. Instead we would be looking at pictures of the wonderful animals that used to roam this land and looking at stuffed specimens in museums. That's basically where your way of thinking would have lead us not so long ago.

Those that do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it. I suggest that you learn from the mistakes that your forefathers made concerning the killing off of wildlife. If you can't see the big picture and the reason for wolves to exist in nature then nothing I can say will change your mine. It's a sad sad world you must live in and you have not given any good reson for the wolves not to be reintroduced in a responsible manner.

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I've been hunting in CO, same area, since 1970 or so. In the time that wolves have begun being seen in that area, there has been a marked decrease in the numbers of elk and deer we have seen. Anecdotal evidence probably, but ask the locals and they will tell you differently about what happens to their animals...sheep and cattle...when a pack moves in.

What bugs me almost as much is the attitude of local CDOW folks. I questioned a warden several years ago about wolves. He told me I was wrong, there aren't any wolves in that area. I asked him if it was ok to have shot that really big coyote I saw.He didn't think that was too funny.

I saw my first CO wolf in 1985 while trying my luck at coyote calling on the ranch of a friend.It wasn't long after that when I began seeing more tracks during hunting season.

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"...you have not given any good reason for the wolves not to be reintroduced in a responsible manner."

Reasons?
1) They were never biologically endangered in the first place.
2) They were reintroduced based on lies and nebulus statistics.
3) Nothing the feds have ever done concerning wolves has ever showed anything resembling responsible.
4) Its a mistake to think the reintroduction of wolves was even about wolves or elk.

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Its obvious there are too many elk, deer etc in some areas. They have been kept that way by feeding programs and the irradication of preditors.
Maybe your average Wyoming elk is just another farmed animal.

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RE: Wolves: Tell Me Again Why It Was A Good Idea.....
 

I begining to think all those Maine moose must be farm raised like the elk out there. Those stupid farm raised animals like to run around in the road so that people will be killed when they run into them!! Get real the wolves time is not today. If it is why haven't you let them lose in the cities? Those cities were once part of the wolves range years ago. Besides they
might catch pidgeons in the park and you could here them howl at night.:)At least they would be protected easier and you might be able to see one. I say we need to keep the wolves in the history books. But, I'm glad we do not have wolves here cause only 2 were shot and those poor folks had to pay for it. And we are still told none here yet so keep them out of
here and put them in the cities first.

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Maybe they should be reintroduced in D.C.;). They could compete with the Sharks.

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Still more ranting without an answer. Nevermind, your obvious inability to answer why the wolves were re-introduced is answer enough in itself. Essentially, you are arguing for something and you don't even know why. BTW, it was PEOPLE who restored wildlife in this country, they same ones you claim tried to destroy everything. It is always easy to look back in history and think how dumb those folks were. A 100 years from now they will look back at us and say the same thing. Probably something along the lines of "man they were stupid to re-introduce the wolf, there used to be elk here." Since your so concerned with restoring nature BB, perhaps you should dump your 4x4, guns, camo etc, puit on a lion cloth and run around with a club, you know, give those critters a chance, like they used to have.

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S.S.S.

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I'll second SSS