RE: R Guided & Private Land , Really Hunting????????????
 

The only other thing I'd like to close with is this:
As far as trophy animals go for the record books I'd like to use the example of major league baseball. Do you think that MLB players that take (or took ) steroids deserve the records they have broken when measured against players of the old days that never took them? This is the analogy I use toany folks who acquire a record animal on a managed (food-plotted contained area). The folks of the bygoneera had to take animals from nature in the wilds where it was not possible to give them nutrients that changed antler and/or body growth. Also, the measurement of the health of the North American eco-system can't be garnered fromsome food-plotted ranch. So, I think record book animals should have to come from pure nature. otherwise, the rules need to be changed to deduct from the any new records that do not come out of mother-nature in her purest form. I;m not a trophy hunter, but for the rules to be fair it would logically follow for me (as in MLB) that any manipulation above and beyond what hunters of other era's had access to would be unfair.Otherwise, I could go capture a genetically exceptional animal, put it on my farm, give it nutrient packed feed, body and antler growth specific and when (and if) it attains world record status go out and shoot it and submit for record. The analogy is extreme but only as an example to show my point. Because i am indeed an advocate of not allowing any new records in any sport where unfair manipulation other than what God's grace brought forth. This is a bit off topic, but not really. It still encompasses what constitutes true "fair chase" and over-all fairness in general to both game & man. Although it has nothing to do with guided hunts which in most cases constitutes fairness. Guided hunts can be awesome and neccessary. This is more about record books and augmentation and manipulation of nature.

RE: R Guided & Private Land , Really Hunting????????????
 

So what about Recurves Vs. Compound Bows??? I understand what you are saying, but technology has taken over everything and we can't change that. Just remember, "Trophy is in the eyes of the beholder".

RE: R Guided & Private Land , Really Hunting????????????
 

[:'(]Good point Huntinwv: But I don't believe we should allow for technology in terms of the method for dispatching the animal. Again using the MLB analogy-the game's technology has changed a bit. But a bat is still made of wood. If they started allowing titanium bats or somesuch then they would have to change the record books to reflect the increased ease of hitting those bats might reward. So too I think that records should be analogous to the type of weapon used. Recurve vs. compound etc. So there is a world record for each category. That would be the ultimate-and I thought they did that already ..no? If they don't they should. Because anyone who has shot both types of bows no there is a big difference in skills and strength involved. Same with long bows. The weapon should be a seperate category for a different record when appropriate. As for me I could give a dang. I drew a doe tag this year and if I fill it with a nice fat mature doe-that will be all the record I need. So far, my wife thinks I'm the cat's meow cuz I have never not got a deer since she's known me. And only one of those years did I not get an elk (knock on wood). My pals and I don't go hunting to sit around and drink and spend time scruffin about. We are all dead serious and very tenacious toward getting meat in the freezer. The last two years, I didnt get my deer until the last day of two 4 day hunts and man, I was sweatin it. I had my bro drop me off at the top of a 4 mile long canyon with a road the skirted its top. at 9AM that last day. I worked that canyon slowly with my bro waiting for me at the bottom. Well, I was pretty sad as I had about 1/4 mile to go (and could see the truck) when all of a sudden a pinto colored whitetail jumped up from some tall grass and ducked into a hollow in the canyon floor. That rascal thought he was hidden but his upper body and head was framed by the bushes in the hollow directly dowwnhill from me at about75 yards. Boom that was it. Dragged heim the remaining 1/4 mile to the car. A very similar scenario happened the year before. And the same with the last elk. There aint a wholr lot of give up in my group. Especially when my buddies are already harboring.;)they all call me crunch time now.

RE: R Guided & Private Land , Really Hunting????????????
 

Pinto,

So I guess by your rules no animal killed from this point on could go in the record book. Think about it for a second. Those elk in the national forest migrate down into pasture land in the winter. They eat alfalfa. Thats not natural. That could be considered a "food Plot". Any whitetail or muley that could have possibly ate from a Corn field, or soybean field is ineligible. And While we are at it, we've removed a lot if not all the predators for many of our "big game". so that means that all Big Game animals have an unfair advantage over those of the past so they are all ineligible. I guess by your way of thinking we should just close the record books and seal them up.[:@]

OBTW go beat your chest somewhere else, I don't care!

RE: R Guided & Private Land , Really Hunting????????????
 

Hey Shato....Preacher itBrother! Who ever does'nt like it So what!

RE: R Guided & Private Land , Really Hunting????????????
 

I don't like the analogy of comparing baseball records to hunting records. Baseball records are thereto honor the player. In my opinion hunting records are there to honor the animal. Sure the hunter gets/deserves credit but it's really about the animal. I could tell you within a small range what the record in inches is for Rocky Mountain elk and Mule deer for both typical and non-typical but I couldn't tell you who harvested any of those animals to save my life. The record books are for the animals. There is no need for there to be extremely strict rules like you would have in a Pro sport. If you went out and hunted an animal with a legal tag and your weapon meets requirements then you deserve to honor your animal by entering it in the books. It doesn't matter if you were guided or not. Doesn't matter if you were on private land or not.

RE: R Guided & Private Land , Really Hunting????????????
 

Hey - I really could care less about all this crap. Just expressing my opinion-right or wrong. I'm just getting soured from watching too much outdoor TV. Plus, I'm bored to tears!! Add to that the excitement of the fact I'm leaving for the long weekend to dove hunt & deer/elk scout and get away from the city. Hey, good point about farm fields...but, last time I checked they arent puttin any super deer mix in with the alfalfa. I was referring to the practice of feed-lots purely for the purpose of growing large bucks fast. But even so, I could give a rip-it just aint for me. But I respect that you all can have your opinions and I can have mine. And since my opinion isnt gonna effect any of the way records are kept any time soon-you won't have to worry. "Records to honor the animals"-give me a break. Records to honor the ego would be more like it. Honoring the animal is being grateful enough to be happy with whatever meat so blesses your refridgerator-and management hunting- instead of trophy hunting. By protecting their habitat and fighting for it- from all those who would take it away. And, making sure the habitat is available for the animals and all who seek it in a benevolent fashion. Yes, public lands are much, much more precious a resource than someones fenced in feed-lot will ever be. When I gotta start payin to enter private property to hunt-is a day I hope to never see. But I repect everyones freedom to do what they please with their land-(and the animals on it to a point).

RE: R Guided & Private Land , Really Hunting????????????
 

Well you've got a point there. I am mostly a meat hunter but I like the occasional big rack too. But I gotta admit I like that records are kept, I just like knowing what's the biggest ever. Kind of cool to me but when I go hunting I'm not aspiring to make the books either.

RE: R Guided & Private Land , Really Hunting????????????
 

You're probably right. Or maybe he's very young or inexperienced and just doesn't realize that there are very valid reasons why other people want to or need to hunt differently than he does in his little corner of the world.

One example- did he, as a beginning hunter, ever hunt with someone who was more experienced - showed him the ropes? When I began, I went wwith friends and family. But they basically held my hand - showed me how to dress, what to bring, where to go, what to do. Even went to the range before and showed me how to handle a gun and how to shoot. How is this different than a person, who can afford it, using a guide? Maybe that person is not experienced enough to do it completely on his own and doesn't have friends/family to hold his hand and therefore hires a guide.

I have friend who's done very well, money wise. He did not grow up in a hunting or fishing family, nor did he have any money he didn't earn by working hard for many years. When he got some dough, he had a lot of fun doing guided hunts and fishing trips because he never had the opportunity before. On the surface, I'm sure he looked like a rich fat cat (not fat though) - everything from sox to gun new, and "the best" because, well, it WAS new and he bought what he could afford. (He is a gadget guy and likes to buy expensive toys.) But his motivation was wanting to hunt and fish, period. Now I partner with the guy a lot hunting and fishing and in some scenarios, he knows a lot more than me- because of the guides who taught him. I'm always happy when there's a situation when I know more than him and I show him the ropes - can act as his guide and outfitter. He does the same for me. Of course, he's the kind of guy who wants to learn and be independent. I'm sure there's guys who use guides and just shoot and never learn. Not all, for sure.

RE: R Guided & Private Land , Really Hunting????????????
 

No Zekeskar: You got me wrong. I don't think there is anything wrong with the RIGHT kind of guided HUNT. It's just what I believe is right and what I believe is a hunt that Ive been ranting about. Sure, my dad and brothers showed me the ropes. More or less trial by fire. Been hunting since I could lift a gun and before that I carried a BB gun-still went along. I also love nice size bucks. In fact I went out and scouted some very nice bucks last weekend. Infact, it was the the best scouting trip I have ever been on interms of sheer numbers of bucks both large and small. However, we found some gorgeous Muley bucks!! Broad and High racks. Guided trips are fine. I just have a problem with the idea of feeding a buck, giving it a name and go out on yer property and shoot it. Thats more like farming than hunting. It aint friggin fair-period. I think animals should be taken from nature. I think its fine if they are lured to farm fields -just by normal farming practices. But I think it goes too far when people feed them in their own backyard to grow them for harvest. Washington State has more wheat country than any state in the US and I have shot many deer in them. But those same fields are at the base of riparian areas, scablands and mountains as far as the eye can see.There are no fences, or the fences are easily jumped by deer. Anyway, you all get my drift...when you start farming deer not only do you violate my interpretation of "fair chase" but any record is skewed as well. Don't even get me started on promoting public lands and keeping thm open for everyone to experience. I know that eventually they (public Lands) will be a thing of the past. But for now, as conservationists and outdoorsman, we need more people to have the ooprtunity to experience the magic of hunting and the outdoors so that our sport will gain more momentum and allies. Most people that watch farmed deer raised and shot on TV are disgusted. And, most of them come away thinking that is hunting. But it IS NOT. The sport is being eaten alive by well meaning folks that don't even know what image they are creating for us real hunters. But, it's alot more difficult to capture the real thing on TV cameras cuz it might take you 3 days to even find an animal-let alone kill it. But heck, I got one in my backyard that I could have the TV man film me killin tomorrow since they are in such a time crunch. Yep, now-a-days it's all about instant gratification.

RE: R Guided & Private Land , Really Hunting????????????
 

I think your idea, and understanding of how many ranches are managed for deer, and how most TV shows are produced is a bit off. My grandfather was a guide in Texas for many years. I'm no expert, but I have a little knowledge. The ranches are larger than the deers normal home range, so many of the deer never leave the ranch. Most ranches are fencedin a manner that will not stop a deer. The deer are also given supplimental feed, food plots, feeders, and such. This isn't "feeding" or "raising" them. How much feed would it takeif they were feeding the deer? I'm sure if they were feeding them the cost would be unbelievable. As for the naming of deer. Only the elusive, extrordinary, stand outbucks get named. This is ussually a deer that people have been seeing for a few years, but no one has tagged yet. The names they recieve are nicknames, the same a a big deer running around any other part of the country avoiding a bullet gets a nickname. No one is incharge of naming it, just some day, some one gives it a name that sticks.

As far as your understanding of the producion of the TV shows; No one wants to watch footage of a hunter in his stand looking at nothing. The raw footage from these shows gets edited. This makes it look easy. Of course some time people get lucky and score on the first day. I have. Anyway, put your self in a producers shoes and think ratings for a minute.

I understand you have a position you must stand by, but I felt the need to clarify a few thing. Please note, I am not denying that canned hunts don't exist. I'm just trying to clear the air a little.

RE: R Guided & Private Land , Really Hunting????????????
 

Flairball-your points are well taken. And, I am sure there are many Ranches that fit the bill you describe. It's the others that cross the line. Out here, to find a nice buck is like finding a needle in a haystack. Then, you have to pattern the dang thing enough to give yourself a chance. Most of the true trophy bucks are largely nocturnal and you may never see them ecept in the summer-early fall with extended daylight hours. Whitetails are a bit easier out here because they don't range very far (though they do range a bit farther than one would normally expect in the wide open wheat country.).Muleys however can bee seen today, and in the next county tomorrow. The point is, on public and wilderness lands large trophy bucks are like ghosts and you most certainly would never see one enough to "name it' or pattern it, unless you were a full-time scouter or guide. Alot of us have to pattern bucks on the fly, that is to say on a 2-5 day hunt on which you are doing an incredible amount of spot & stalk. In all my years of hunting out west I have never seen a tree-stand while hunting. Out here tree standuse is rare except by a few bow hunters. Our country is full of topography and relief. Most hunting is done in spot & stalk style.There is some blind hunting but mostly in natural cover such as in elk hunting a tree lined meadow. It's mostly active hunting as opposed to sitting & waiting, though there is some of that too. So I guess my reality of what hunting is, is just different because of the conditions we hunt in here in the northwest. In all my logged miles of hunting I have never known a buck by name. Nor, could I ever be positve from year, to year, that the buck I'm looking at, I may have seen before (when younger). No, its a very "pure" form of hunting that my experience has been gained from. And, after seeing some of "what else" goes on in the hunting world, I am very grateful for it's purity. Hunting is getting a bit too sophisticated for my tastes. Give me a good rifle, some public land or wilderness, a good pair of boots, a knife, survival gear, binoculars, knowledge of wind direction and a few animals and call it good. And yes, I do have a couple of farmer friends who's land is bordered by public hunting land that I use from year to year. But it isnt fenced. You ever see washington wheat country? Now that would take some miles of fencing.

RE: R Guided & Private Land , Really Hunting????????????
 

WOW,
I suppose this forum is a bit old but bowedark,
really struck a vital here. I don't think he deserves some of the rude comments sent his way.Like most of you, my sentiments are somewhere in the middle.
First of all, where you live will have a huge impact on your perspective, no one is wronge here, but no one is entirely right either. Of course if you live out east or in a mainly privately held agriculteral state you will have a different hunting concept than someone from Alaska. No need to be rude, but to suggest a private ranch hunt in Colorado is the same as a private land hunt in Mich. is a little off base.
And by the way, it could just as easily be argued thatsome ofyou are a bit sensitive because your own trophy's were taken on a managedhunt as the case that you make of bowedarkjust being jealous.
First of all virtually all non-residents need a guide and outfitter to hunt Western Canada. Does that mean their Sheep cant be scored for B and C?
Of Course not. I don't think a single Stone Ram was ever taken on private land and hopefully that will never change.
I too subscribe to the notion that the B and C Records attemptsto honor the animals. Sure there are hunters who need a bit of an ego boost but I feel the Boone and Crocket is actually a reference book that biologists, and otherscan use to show past wildlife patterns,health, distribution etc. It really is a scientifically usefull book. To record pandered or animals who lived in a controled situation, within the B and C,destroys the credibility of this information. Those animals can go into the SCI or some other book.
For instance, only 4 elk scored over 400 B and C for the first 100 years or so of records keeping. There are hunt ranches today that will let you pick from dozens of 400 plus elk that you are guarranteed to take home. No kill no Pay. I know this is a bit of a stretch from a private ranch hunt or a guided hunt, but the extremes have to meet somewhere. Just where is this middle ground?
Guides are good people, many of my friends are guides, but please remember we are all resident hunters when we are at home. When I am sheep hunting on public land in my own province and the local outfitter is flying over my head all day looking for sheep in his airplane, should I think that any rams he takes are the same as someone who didn't use a plane? I think this is where bowedark is coming from and it is a valid arguement. This may not bea problem in the western US but arrived inNorthern BC and Yukon from Alaska about 20 years ago. This practise is not exactly illegal, but to me it is bothunethical and unnecessary. Often the non resident hunter booked with the outfitter is not even aware that his ram is being located from an aircraft. The question is do we accept both methods as being "equal?"Or does the measure of effort make one trophy more relevent than the other? Perhaps a ram located by aircraft should be ineligable for B and C on ethical grounds. Or should it definately be recorded for its scientific value.Don't worry, the truely big rams were taken on fairchase hunts that lasted weeks on horseback, but then rumour has it the Chadwick ram was shot by the guide. The Boone and Crockett stopped recording Alaska Polar Bears many years ago because it was standard practice to hunt them with a supercub. If polar bear hunting were reopened today, would we again allow their recording because we are now less ethical???
Remember that wildlife belongs to the public, that means you and me. This is a very important point. Its one of the reasons you fought the war of independence. Most of these arguments arrise when someone such as a land owner or outfitter start thinking that this public resource actually belongs to them. I guess when you fence it in, it would appear possesion is 9/10th of the law, no matter how big the ranch.
In England all the rabbits belonged to the king and lived in the king's forest. A starving man could be hung for eating one of the kings rabbits, or one of his salmon. In North America, all game whether on public or private land belongs not to the king but to the great unwashed.We should all rejoice in this.
So go hunting and have fun, be you a meat or trophy hunter. Remember that the most important part of hunting is the practise of fair chase. If this is not so, then you are no longer hunting (to seak), and we are no longer Hunters (seakers).We do no one more harm than we do to ourselves, by constantly redefineing what that means..
Happy Hunting

RE: R Guided & Private Land , Really Hunting????????????
 

WELL IF YOU DISQULIFY ANY ANIMAL TAKEN WITH A GUIDE THEN ANY ANIMAL HARVESTED IN CANADA BY AN AMERICAN WOULD NEVER GO INTO THE BOOK ... YOU HAVE TO USE AN OUTFITTER IN CANADA AND MOST ACT AS EITHER AGUIDE OR HAS ONE WORKING FOR HIM ....

ROLL TIDE
DD

RE: R Guided & Private Land , Really Hunting????????????
 

I have to agree with much of what Deercorn,Pintoshot,and you too Red have all been saying but I think Rather be hunting hit a nail squarely.
Hunting nowadays is sorely confused by many, if not most, to be a competitive sport. You here all the time the same old tired argument about not having alevel playing field among the differentteams and how things just aren't fair out there in pro sports land. Some hunters just want to equate the same distinctions to hunting. I would agree whole heartily with rather be huntin, the book was meant to reconize the game animal and I might add, the area it was taken from. The name of the hunter is actually of minor importance when researching the Books for information. Some people are just into bragging rights and feeding their egos it seems. They want to gripe if there's no hope in them of ever doing that. The truth is, people like this ought to be complaining to records people to start making the distinction for free range or high fence kills. This might have the affect of lowering the value of high fence trophys to point of where the desperate could afford it, although I doubt it. Maybe they already do, shows you how much I know about those darn books!

















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RE: R Guided & Private Land , Really Hunting????????????
 

as long as its free rangin wild game with no high fences i dont care if its private land or guided its still hunting. some people bust their a$$es for a week on guided hunts and can still come up empty handed

RE: R Guided & Private Land , Really Hunting????????????
 

Define "fair chase" and then go from there...

RE: R Guided & Private Land , Really Hunting????????????
 

To each his own......
I don't have a habit of knocking how other people hunt.