Cherokee, I'm sure some of your clients say they want a monster, but once they get there they will shoot about anything they can. Even a small bull can look like a monster to an eastern whitetail hunter on his first western hunt. I do think that outfitters push the trophy aspect without enough emphasis on the western experience. When I think of hunting elk I don't think of huge bulls, I usually think of huge buglesscreaming through the canyons.[8D] I seriously doubt that even 80% of the hunters who say they want a 180" or 360" deer or elk have ever even killed one, let alone doing it on a regular basis. Huge trophy bulls are hard tofind, harder to hunt, and even harder to kill once, let alone every season. I also think we have access to the media around huge animals. When I was growing up we only knew what was going on in our general area, if somebody shot a huge buck they would bring it down town and everyone would have a look. We didn't have QDM, land leases, high fence hunts, internet, or hunting shows that showed a trophy class animal on every hunt.

I understand everyone's points and they are all valid (I LOVE the feathers in the vase trophy by Muley, that is an AWESOME idea and can be a family heirloom for generations!) but IMHO the difference between trophies with regards too elk vs deer is two entirely different things. A 180 class buck is MUCH more rare than a 300class bull. I think something more befitting would be a 380" bull than a 300"er. Another thing I personally feel is that an elk on "public land" is no different than a bull on private land in most locales in the west. The simple fact is that most elk (and even deer for that matter) are not going to spend their entire lives on either public or private land so I think that fact alone negates the "public vs private land" arguement for what makes a trophy.

Maybe in some heavily hunted areas like many in CO your chances are substantially better on private than public but in better managed areas like AZ, NM, UT and a few other places, the bulls are just as likely to be on public land as anywhere else. Afterall, there aren't that many 100k+ acre ranches out west. Landvalue and inheritance taxes have seen too the selloffs of the largest ranches that were around 75-100yrs ago. I suppose the largest "private areas" are the various Indian reservations with the best obviously being those in the San Carlos/White Mtn. Apache reservations in AZ. But do I consider a 320"er from CO a better trophy than a 400"er from White Mtn.? Certainly not, a 400"er is the thing dreams are made of and what ALL elk hunters desire whether they want to admit it or not. You can simply answer that question by asking one simple question, "You are in XYZ state and have a tag in your pocket and suddenly you have a 400" 7x7 and a 320" 6x6 both standing in the same pasture and both easily within gun reach. Which one you gonna take?

Unfortunately we can't all hunt White Mtn. so I believe that that leaves alot of "CO DIYers" too mask their fate and call the hunters who CAN hunt the prime areas, somehow less hunters or dismiss their trophies as being "less" than some raghorn killed on Federal land in a shotout region of a shotout state. In reality that has NOTHING to do with the "trophiness" of either hunters animals.

As for the deer question, a 180" buck (either muley OR whitetails) is one tough animal to come by and you will spend years and ALOT of money looking at many many deer before you might even catch a glimpse (if ever) of a unique monarch. A 180" buck is a 180" buck IMHO and it is so just about anywhere it lives. I suppose some small "pen" of say 1000 acres or less that is behind a fence COULD be considered cheating. But anyother size plot simply is ALOT of ground for such a buck to spend his life. The big ranches in southern TX are simply AMAZING plots of ground and for those that haven't had the luck to hunt on one or two of them, they are not the "answer too all questions" many would have you believe. A 180" buck for most intents and purposes will be a mature animal that quickly learned the score and is no dummy.

My definition of a trophy actually depends on the animal itself. For whitetails I consider an 8ptr over 140" to be a trophy, anything over 10pts needs to be 150"+ before I turn the safety off. But that obviously comes after 2 decades of chasing them and having the luck to have taken several animals of nice size. A 160"+ ANYTHING is going for a ride in my truck if I see it!

For bulls, I have a wonderful "Gila monster" on my wall that is a 368" 6x6 (the Gila/Apache Nat Forrest is public land btw) when I return too that same area (hopefully by bow, my other was by smokepole) any 6x6 over 320 is gonna get perforated. I have a unique desire for a MONSTER 5x5 and would love to have one in the 340" range. Any 5x5 over 300" would be a rare and unique trophy in my opinion. As for bulls any larger... get out the skinnin knife!!!

If a 4x4 raghorn taken just west of Denver is your definition of a trophy, then who is anyone else to say otherwise?
RA

ps
As crazy as it may sound, I can assure you that Chuck Adams would NOT shoot a 340" bull anymore. He is in the position that assures that he aint "chasin bugles" in overhunted areas anymore, he is hunting the primest of the prime areas in the country. I doubt seriously he even draws on anything under 380"! Nice "problem" to have huh?

Red
I am very lucky I get to hunt normaly 10 weeks or more.Here in montana I have hunted around helena . In the 6 years I have hunted around helena I have only saw 2 300+ class elk in places they can be hunted.BUT if I drive to the MO breacks I see 10 a day. I killed a real big 5x5 for helena ti is only 280+I spent many many more days hunting it than I ever did any my big deer.The last 2 years I have passed on many 300+ elk in the MO breaks though, Hard to shoot a 300 when a 380 is standing 100 yards away.

I allso got to hunt KS till I was 29. In the years I hunted there I would not even shoot at a deer under 150 unless it had very difrant antlars.[like 3 horns]. I have many deer that go over 180. Now living in montana I NEVER see any deer any where close to 180s

I do think it makes a huge dif if its pub/priv land.Any day of the week I can drive you strate to 350 bulls you cant hunt ,but the rich can..I could allso do the same for 180 class deer in KS.It is turning in to a got money=== biger antlars.Some of the places I hunted in KS now have guides on them and cant be hunted by normal person.


My point is it is all where you get to hunt and how much cash you have to spend.

For me, it is really hard to define a trophy. I have spent many times in the woods with my dad hunting, but to say anything taken while he is there with me is not a trophywould be a lie. I have, however, hunted by myself many times. The last two times I have had a deer tag, I have held out for a good buck. My dad did the first time, and didn't have a tag last year. That was because I am wanting a GOOD buck. By that I am meaning an honest, mature 3 or 4 point per side deer. I have a couple of small bucks and a couple of does under my belt, so now I am trying to go a little farther and take on the challenge of getting a good buck. I know they are out there, but they can be quite hard to hunt. As for elk. This year will be my first year of hunting elk after years of applying. I drew a cow ML tag, and surely if I take one, it WILL be a trophy!! My dad will be with me for most of the hunt, so that will make it that more special. Now for bulls here in NV, well thats a totally different story. If one gets a bull, he can't even apply for another 10 years again for bull elk. You better know I would make that wait worth the while!! Add to that it can take up to 10 years to draw, and that puts you at 20 years or more between bull elk!! (cows can be drawn every year, but are typically only drawn every three years or so by most people). Sheep are the same way here as bull elk. And Mountain goats area once in a lifetime draw!! Now, if I were to draw a bull tag for about any unit in the state, I would aim for no less than about a 320 bull. I have seen several bulls that would gobetween 300 and 340 or so,and one that was something like 380 or 390 or so. I know there are big bulls here!! Now if I were to go out of state to hunt bulls, where I could get a tag every 2,3, maybe 4 years, I would have no problem shooting a rag 4 or 5 point. But not here, it would be 6 point or bust!!

An Honest Trophy? This one is an easy one for me.

A trophy to me is any mature buck or maturebull that I hunt & killon his own turf.
I only huntwild game. NO FENCES.

Trophy?

Will now we are dwelving into philosophy. I love these arguements. Listen I blame the outdoor channel and folks like Bill Jordan for the skewed way of thinking when it comes to hunting. I never once heard anyone mention the score of animals growing up. I mean folks would say: " I killed a nice high raked 8 point" (eastern count, 4x4 western) Now days everybody's throwing out numbers like 130" eight point, or 150" ten points etc. Its all bunk. I grew up knowing about the Pope&Young book, and the Boone&Crocket book, but folks didn't judge there hunting success based on them. I would love to kill any animal that would make B&C, but it isn't the sole reason why I hunt.

I was lucky enough to kill a 300" 6x6 this last fall. Its a trophy in my eyes. Its hanging on the wall right now, and I show everyone I know. B&C would laugh at my bull.

The Hunting Mags are just as bad, I never read stories about hunting in the wilderness and braving the elements to harvest a respectable animal and feeling satified. No, You read: "I walked over the rise and shot a 400" 7 point" what they don't say is that the ranch owner had to drive his truck through the High Fence to haul the carcass out. The days of Jack O'connor and the like are gone.

Another thing That torques me off is seeing some idiot sit on a stand in front of a feeder. Then he kills some "monster buck" while its munching on its morning snack of protein pellets and I'm supposed to be impressed because he used a bow to kill a 175" whitetail. Hunting ethics are in sad shape in my eyes. Well now I'm on a roll!

Man, I hate it when people associate big bulls/bucks with PRIVATE HIGH FENCED RANCHES!!!

I have seen some big bulls, and all of them are FREE RANGE bulls than anyone can hunt. Granted some are on private property, but we are talking private property that is a working cattle ranch, not high fenced, and the animals are as wild as ever. The biggest bulls in Nevada have been killed on public land. I know where one was killed. A mountain out in the middle of nowhere - that scored 408and change. The state record was killed in the Table Mountain Wilderness in Central Nevada. 425 3/8"! I know one person who has killed a 374" bull, on PUBLIC land!! Another that killeda 405" bull, on PUBLIC land!! I have held in my hands the antlers of a bull that was poached (held them at the NDOW office), it was in the 380" range. My dad saw that bull the year before it was killed, on PUBLIC LAND!! Now, I am not saying Nevada is the only state with big bulls, but people need to get off this thing that only big bulls come off of high fenced ranches!! Also, I think people need to realize that there are fences everywhere. The BLM and Forest Service fence land to divide it up for grazing allottments. Thats how things are. And there are places out west that have more space in one wilderness area, than there is room between 1 town to the next in a lot of areas East of the Mississippi!! It seems like people can't seem to grasp the concept of a field fence, and a high fence. Such a shame.

I think you are right on. I think the trophy is in the eye of the person hunting it. For instance, when I go antelope hunting I have a certain type of animal that I'm looking for that doesn't really have to do with size. It has more to do with how it looks and how difficult it is to bag. If a person sets their sights on a 30" buck or a 350 bull everytime they hunt they will be in a constant state of dissappointment. If that's the case, why even hunt?

What are you going on about? I made no mention of Nevada or that every 400" bull is killed of a high fenced farm. I was talking about these hunting shows and magazines. I know all too well about field fences. I've builtmany a mile of them. Don't lecture me about the difference.

When you watch a show on the Outdoor channel and some jack leg says he thinks he will pass on a 350" bull It makes me scratch my head. Then when he walks over the rise and low and behold there stands a 400" elk which allows him to walk within bow range I say BS. There is no convincing me that its not a High fence hunt. YOU will never convince me that hunting a Confined herd, no matter how many acres there are is legitamate.

I made no mention of differentiating between public and private land hunting, solely "high fence." The law of averages are against any one of us killing a B&C caliber bull. We know that there is a lot more to enjoy about hunting than adding up the inches of bone sticking out of quarry's head.

Like it or not, this culture of antler hunters is fueled by the shows and magazines which emphasize the importance of huge racks. Its more about the killing and less about the adventure of being in wild places and the uncertainty of what the next hour might bring.

If my words scare you, then you should stop asking for opinions.

I HUNT IN NORTH ALABAMA AND SOUTHERN TENNESSEE AND HAVE DEER HUNTED FOR OVER 25 YEARS .... I BOW AND RIFLE HUNT .... LAST YEAR I WENT UP TO ALBERTA CANADA AND GOT LUCKY ENOUGH TO HARVEST MY LIFES DREAM BUCK. I AM SURE TO SOME ITS JUST ANOTHER BUCK BUT TO ME IT IS A TRUE TROPHY THAT HAS TOOK ME MANY YEARS TO COLLECT. I HUNTED HARD FOR SEVERAL DAYS IN SUB ZERO WEATHER AND TRAVELED 1000's OF MILES ... NOW THIS BUCK GROSS SCORED 185 5/8 HOWEVER IT WILL NEVER MAKE THE BOOK BECASUE OF THE NET BUT I REALLY DO NOT CARE AND THATS THE GOD'S HONEST TRUTH. THIS BUCK HAS SO MUCH CHARACTOR THAT I WOULD NOT TRADE IT FOR A 190 CLASS CLASSIC .... I TRULY THINK THE WORD "TROPHY" IS A RELITIVE TERM .... HERE IS A PIC OF MY DEER ..YOU MAY HAVE SEEN IT BEFORE .....

DD