Well said TREEDOG, like i said before look at the site, its got tons of graphs and shooting tests on the .17HMR. Also it wouldn't be like a needle going through and animal, the bullet fragments and goes all over hells half acre inside. The .17HMR can also shoot through a bullet proof vest at 45yrds and the .22mag never pierce it at any range that they tested . i can't get the site right now but i'll post it later if you don't believe me