i have a stand in one of my frequent haunts that sits in a cut-over that was cut around 10 years ago. it is really thick, but has grown up enough that a guy can put a stand in it. my stand is 13 ft. up a small oak sapling that is about 5 to 6" dia at the base of the tree...needless, to say, it doesn't take much of a wind to get me swaying in that tree. after a while, a guy gets used to it i suppose.