First off, climbers just don't cut it in some parts of the country...Here, there's not one tree around that would let you just climb straight up it So, permanants can be great routes when you get them high enough...like everyone else 12-22 feet...depending on your terrain. If your facing into a hill, you could be as high in the tree as you want but still be eye to eye to an approaching deer....And one last thing, some have said it's a little too late to be building stands...not really. Some people put up a stand in the morning and get a deer that evening. And some even hunt their bird or squirrel dogs in the same area as their stands and still get their deer. Good luck.