Thanks Rob. I did a search and I'm leaning towards the 8125. I read that 450/452 has a Vectran blend and is more brittle and is more likly to have more vibration and los of speed. I have 8125 on my Max 3000 (not Winners Choice)and it took longer then I thought to settle in but I think it's about done. Most likly I'll use Winners Choice because I've had good results with there servings. Now they have X-coat on there end servings. Jerry