dkbs obviously you have quite a bit to learn about old men, there are some old men out there that could whip your rear end and mine at the same time with one hand tied behind there back! I had a house burn to the ground in 82, the only thing we were able to save was a 74 chevy malibu wagon, it was parked right up next to the house and a black gentleman named Avon Carter who was well into his 70' s and my self who was 28 at the time lifted the rear end of that car off the ground and drug it 50 foot to where it wouldn' t burn up along with the house. The reason we had to pick it up and drag it was the keys were in the house burning and the car had an automatic locking transmission! Not only did he lift his side of the car, but he lifted the side that had the gas tank which I am sure added a lot of weight to it. You are right that most men in their 80' s would not stand a chance against a young buck, but there are some old men out there that are more than capable of kicking a young mans a$$!!!!