DITTO Ron and Cayugad. The 410's are what I shot in my New Englander for years. The were accurate as the dickens and real deer killers. I almost cried when Hornady dropped them and kept the 385's. I suspect the 385's were better sellers because of the "sexy" hollow point, which is not only not needed - but reduced performance. I used them over 70 grains of Pyrodex RS for a while in my New Englander. Never lost a deer with them, but they were clearly not as good as the heavier flat points.