You guys need to come with us so you can show us how superior you are. Lou Lou told us what his choke did with his set up we are all free to read the numerous posts with positive expieriences and conclude our own big boy conclusions. Again we continue to see childish attacks with anyone that doesn't share your opinion. Grow up guys and learn what an open forum is suppose to be. This is an open discussion of personal expierience and opinion not an Indian creek fan boy club I have no dog in the fight I'm sure they work well in your set ups but they didn't in his. I would imagine your tones would change in person its amazing how a computer screen lets people be so ignorant. You may be shocked that I don't do everything or use every product identical to yourself but get it done none the less. There is more than one way to skin a cat and be effective and ethical contrary to your very sheltered views.