I hate to tell you this, but you can get the Vanguard for a whole lot less money than 500.00!! And it' s not really their " lower end gun" . It' s made by Howa, and it is one of the best guns for the money you can get. Spend 350.00 for the gun, and another 199.00 for a good scope, and you' d have a much better gun, period. As far as a " bunch of people who don' t own one......" goes, there' s a reason for that. It' s because they know a POS when they see it.