Twang and others thanks for the info ,I will be checking things out.The outfitter in Ill' was in pike county and he said all his permits were sold out,so I quess he meant they were all promised to someone else already. Cougar ,What I call a fair chase ,Im sorry I said free chase, is one without a fence,Yes the land is leased or owned and mamaged for big bucks.If Im going to spend 3000,travel 2400 miles round trip and endure teeth gritting body pain for a chance for a 150 plus,which is all I will shoot on that type of hunt I want at least a honest person to deal with that delivers what he says he will.To bad cause I can hunt free in Iowa but I will never get a tag,for atleast another year or maybe 2 because of there draw and preference system.Just lookin around ,maybe I wont even go at all,depends alot on nancys health.