"Its also an irrational argument to claim that there are all these people who will go years without taking a deer or even seeing a deer during hunting season under current conditions."

Noone said a thing about "seeing a deer" Its a pretty pathetic hunter that would define the quality of their season based upon seeing "a deer" lol .

Want to question the "going without deer" part? I suggest you familiarize yourself with the harvest stats vs. hunter numbers. 109-120k bucks split between 900,000 hunters? Hell you can even throw in the higher than should be but still low comparatively doe harvests which arent sustainable. Consider the sra areas have from 58-100K doe tags!! And guys there can slaugher many deer apiece...And apply that information when examining the numbers and you'll see the huge majority are not successful taking ANY deer each year, Extreme reduction isnt exactly the prescription for their ills either.

"Even the folks on here who take the sky is falling position usually end up acknowledging that they see deer, kill deer, or choose to pass on particular deer. "

Im guessing the few here who do that are very avid hunters and hardly the "average". If they didnt have the interest they wouldnt be here all the time discussing these issues. Remember the current discussion is involving KIDS and recruitment. Not whether or ss or anyone else here can "find" a deer.

"So, sorry, but i don't buy the story that all these kids are dropping out of hunting because they spent weeks in the deer stand and didn't see anything but chipmunks."

As much as you like to try and thing so, I dont see whereas you have a clue whats going on here. lmao. I mean that sincerely and not being a wisearse either. You dont live here, you dont hunt here, and you have no valid source for much information where any of this is concerned.

"The only way to make everybody truely happy and to be able to effectively recruit kids into deer hunting who really arent hunters but like to shoot deer is to manage the herd at unsustainable levels"

Guess, you must be talking about another state. Cant really speak about that.

"Illinois's deer herd and harvest rates are off the charts, yet one can still find plenty of people making the same complaints about quality of hunting and management as I hear from folks like you in PA."

So? Perhaps you have a valid beef with them. Then again Im not hearing those complaints as I dont closely follow what goes on in Ill. I do know its a well known fact Ill. is one of the best states in the nation. I know a helluva lotta guys from Pa spend alot of money to hunt out there and its not because their hunting is terrible. I also know Illinios ranks about 30 places above pa in boone & crockett rankings, and I know Illinois deer management didnt need a bullet proof vest. I dont think they have nationally known "deer wars", and their managemnt isnt spoken of as the biggest joke in the nation. Need I say more??? Because we both know there is plenty more that i could add!