I wasn't to thrilled with the black clouds. I know that I won't pay the $16-$18 a box for one, thats for sure. I will take your advice and shoot those remmingtons.. I shot 4's for ducks last year and shot BB for geese. When i shot my normal shells last year (Winchester Xperts) i seemed to do above average.. How do you like the Winchester's compared to Remmingtons?