thanx beardbuster...i did buy one of them kits...i couldnt get the goofy velvet on there so i just threw it out...it looks fine without anything....im done mounting deer like that....everything else is a european skull mount...ill let you know how the spurs turn out....maybe i can steal someones digi cam and show off my first bird and the mount i made for it if it looks good enough...thanx for all the help