Thanks guys i will give all the info a try. I am planing on shooting some on sunday and will try the wet patches and lose the bore butter and see if that helps any. You guys have given me alot of good info and will keep trying new things until i get this problem worked out. i could not ask for a gun to shoot any better than what it does but its got to be a easier way to clean it. I use montana extream to clean my high power maybe this will clean my bp. The montana extream is the best stuff that i have ever used in my rifles and that about all i see used at my range that i shoot at all the 1000 yard guys use the stuff, very good on removeing copper and other things from bore.