Lost Highway, I need to point out that I mentioned early that my pup is not being trained for any trial work. Also, you guys keep saying how outdated Wolters is, and you keep going back to "Water Dog". You should probably get more familiar with all of his works before you lump them together. Again, I am using "Game Dog", his most recent book, last revision being 1995. In it he discusses forced fetching, and electronic collars, but feels that for a high quality "hunting " dog, such types of training aren't required. The training he takes you through is not basic by any means. There is extensive work on upland training, hand signals and casting, and marking long retrieves. Please read the book. If at the end, you don't think that a dog trained that way will be anything more than an average hunting dog, then we just don't see eye to eye.