Judging by the same charts from Hawks, the milder loads would start about 30-06 levels or 17-19 lbs. I was not arguing with you its just that the 45-70 can be loaded to *****cat levels or bearcat levels.The same with rifles and their weight. Even 405 grain bullets at 1200 fps will thunp you pretty good in the NEF and Ruger Number Three rifles. The Marlin for me is not to bad, either the weight or shape and style of the stock, make it more pleasant forme to shoot. A heavy load in the 12 Ga NEF shotgun will hammer you more than most 45-70 loads. On that I agree.