yea im w/ max the dog... i lost a real nice 8 ptr that im still sick over. it was a 20 yrd shot but the expandibles take all the power when they open up. My dad my uncle and me spent 3 days each 4+hours lookin but we couldnt find it then a weekor so later i went out a agin and got another 8 ptr that was right under my stand again w/ retractibles andit took us 3 days to find him these thing just dont get the penetration. next yr im goin back to fixed for good