jag..... i see you like numbers so here's some numbers. how about 1900 fps. and 1200 pounds of energy at 100 yards. these two small numbers have killed more deer than any of the rest of the calibers put together. a .223 with 75 grains of leadat100 yardsis trucking along at about 2600 fps. and has 1150 pounds of energy left.not much differance is there.guess what the first gun is????????? it's a 30-30. your not going to tell us that the 30-30 is to slow or it does not have the power needed to the job are ya. i did like the sling shot remark though. that was a good one.