some reading material for the chauvanists
06-19-2005 | 03:27 PM
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Giant Nontypical
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some reading material for the chauvanists
Women in the Fire Service
©2004 by Patty Schramm, EMT-P/FF
A Brief History
Benjamin Franklin established the first volunteer fire department in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, in 1736. In 1818, just 82 years later, Molly Williams was credited with being the first known woman volunteer firefighter. She was an African-American slave owned by New York merchant Benjamin Aymar, a firefighter of Oceanus Engine Company No. 11. She would go with him on calls and is credited with helping to drag the engine to the scene of a fire during the blizzard of 1818. Molly fought fires wearing a calico dress and checked apron. (Today’s firefighters wear 68 lbs. of protective gear.)
In 1820, Marina Betts was a volunteer in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, and said she never missed an alarm in ten years of service. Marina was known for dumping a bucket of water on any man that stood by and refused to join the bucket brigade. She left the department when she married one of the other firemen.
Much of the early history of women firefighters has been lost. Up until the 1970s, records weren’t kept of the hundreds, perhaps thousands, of women who served their communities on bucket brigades, fire watches, and volunteer fire companies. History does record that some all-women fire departments existed, and during World War II, many fire departments had only women firefighters available.
The first full-time female career firefighter was Judith Livers of Arlington County, Virginia. She became interested in the fire service while helping her firefighter husband study for his fire science courses. In 1974, she was hired by the fire department in Arlington County. Now Judith Brewer, she retired as battalion chief from the department in 1999.
Toni McIntosh is the earliest African-American woman career firefighter. In June of 1976, she was hired by Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, Fire Department. She was the only woman there for another 11 years.
Firefighting is not just another traditionally male-dominated job; it is a brotherhood—key word being “brother.” In the firefighting world, homophobia runs rampant and sexually explicit comments are commonplace.
But it is also an incredibly tight-knit, if not dysfunctional, family where any member would put his/her life on the line for another without hesitation.
In this brotherhood, women are often relegated to the sidelines as members of the “Women’s Auxiliary.” Their function is to provide fundraisers for the fire department, food for parties, or refreshments at the scene of a fire.
According to a survey by Women in the Fire Service, Inc., more than 40,000 females serve as volunteer firefighters in the U.S. and nearly 6,100 as full-time career firefighters. Several hundred of these firefighters are lieutenants or captains, and more than 60 are district, division, assistant, or battalion chiefs.
[/b]
The Sisterhood
[/b]
Caroline Paul[/b], an out lesbian firefighter for the city of San Francisco, told Stanford Magazine[/i] that the fact that she is gay was never a problem. If anything, she said the other firefighters expected it.
Any woman who would choose to enter a male-dominated career must be a dyke, right? Of course not, but it is still a perception shared by many. And if that woman is a lesbian, is it just accepted as a matter of course or is she shunned even more by her male peers?
I had the opportunity to interview three lesbian firefighters for this article, and to learn about their experiences on the job. The responses they gave me regarding race, sexuality, fairness, and the day-to-day work in the fire service contained many similarities and a few differences.[align=center]
[/align]Jennifer Greer,[/b] an African-American out lesbian, has been a career firefighter for 17 years. I asked if she had encountered any problems, such as open hostilities, she had this to say, “I am out at work and have been since very early in my career. I left the military with the intention of never having to hide my sexuality, but I wasn’t planning on making an issue of it either. My intention was thwarted within months of taking the job when I was followed to a local gay bar. I live and work in Colorado, home of Amendment 2 (stripping homosexuals of some of their rights, but later struck down), so it was a ‘big deal’ that I was gay and not ashamed.
“My sexuality was and is an issue with a lot of people both on and off the job and caused a lot of problems early in my career. When I was new, my lovely was never allowed inside a fire station. If we wanted to visit or needed to talk, she had to wait outside and I’d go out to her. That was unconscionable considering she was a tax-paying citizen and the firehouse is public property. I also used to have to keep a close eye on my personal property and some of my gear. I lost a lot of things from people finding them and throwing them away just to make my life difficult and to make me feel unwelcome. I was never physically assaulted (unlike stories I’ve heard about other cities), but I usually had to do things alone (raise ladders, lift cots, carry equipment, clean house, etc.) that everyone else got help with. Thankfully, those days are gone.”
Jody Cronin,[/b] also an out lesbian, is a career firefighter from Ohio. Her response to my question was surprisingly different. “I have been in the fire service for 19 years, all of those years with the department in the town I grew up in. We’re a small Midwestern town with a population of around 2,500, so not much goes on that the rest of the town doesn’t know about. Growing up, I think a lot of my friends and classmates suspected I was gay long before I knew it.
“Two years ago, I became the first woman hired full time by my fire department. I had been a volunteer up to that point. Around that same time, I came out (slowly so as not to jeopardize my probationary status) to a few friends. My employers are mostly ‘rednecks’ who do nothing to dispel any of the stereotyping of rednecks, so I felt if they knew I was gay they would find a reason not to pass me from probation.
“My job is secure now, and I no longer hide my sexuality. I have known most of my co-workers since grade school, and I think that might have a lot to do with their acceptance. I’m not sure I’d get that kind of acceptance from another fire department.
“Just after I was hired, we hired a part-time fellow who was openly gay. He was the brunt of a lot of harassment, and though I couldn’t prove it, I’m sure he was let go during his probationary period because he was so openly gay. Ironically, one man, who went to school with most of us, recently came out as gay and he is still very much accepted as a member of the ‘family’ because he was on our fire department for many years.
“It’s kind of a ‘If you’re one of us, it’s okay. But if you’re an outsider, it’s not’ mentality.”
Alishia Ouellette[/b], a career firefighter from Massachusetts. She is also the only woman on the department. “I have had some incidents of extreme discriminatory actions and/or words. Most of the reactions (negative) have been of the subtle type—exclusion, refusal to use proper pronouns. Another area is the ‘traitor to my gender.’
“I have always disliked and have been outspoken about the way the men viewed women’s looks—or the lack of them—and the jokes that usually followed. I also disagreed with the stereotyping that a woman can’t do the job. On the other hand, I have seen women be checked off and passed on practical tests even though they could not do the assignment. I do not believe in passing anyone (female, minority, male, or trans), if they can’t do the work, just to keep the percentage quota. This has not changed to this day.”
Because of the stereotyping that women can’t do the jobs that men can, many women find they must constantly prove themselves to their male counterparts. Because many male firefighters still do view the job as a “brotherhood” there is often no room for women. By their reckoning, if a woman is allowed anywhere in the fire service, it is as an EMT (emergency medical technician), not as a firefighter. Breaking down that barrier and getting the men to accept a woman as part of the team is not an easy task.
Jennifer Greer said, “I’ve rarely felt like part of the team and firefighting is all about teamwork.”
Does this mean that these women who have managed to break down that barrier have to prove themselves to the men and other women of their fire departments?
“I’ve never felt I had to prove myself to anyone,” said Greer. “I think this is probably because I learned early on that as a black woman (child, back then), I was never going to be able to make everyone happy. I’m old enough that I’ve benefited from affirmative action, so most things I’ve accomplished (education, flying helicopters in the military, becoming a firefighter, etc.) have always been tainted by people (mainly white men but some women too) saying that I only got what I got because I was black or because I was a woman. This completely ignores the fact that I was competitive and could have accomplished what I’ve accomplished if I’d been given a fair chance.
“I think trying to prove oneself is a mistake that holds women back. I watch the new women on my job do this day after day, and I see how it wears on them. New men have an automatic acceptance that is never extended to new women. The new women try and try and try to be part of the team. Some of them even make it, but at a huge cost to their self-esteem and self worth. The guys eventually accept some of them, but usually just until they compete for a promotion with the women and lose. Then that acceptance gets thrown out the window, and the women are painted with the ‘you got it because you’re a woman’ brush and the women are back to being outsiders. It’s funny, but only then do they seek out other women on the job.”
Greer went on to say, “It was years before our department allowed women to ride on truck companies, and I think this was mainly because they thought that women weren’t strong enough.” It’s a given that she has had to work twice as hard as the men. It wasn’t a matter of proving herself, but a matter of survival. “Firefighting is physically and emotionally strenuous, and most men are physically stronger than most women are, so the labor comes easier to them. The emotional aspect of the job is challenging for me (and I believe most women), because in my experience, men just aren’t as introspective as women are. We need to process our experiences to help them have meaning, whereas men just do things and move on.
Within the next two years, Greer will be promoted to chief—the first female chief in her department’s history. “Still, even though I’ve been competitive in all of the promotional tests I’ve taken, my successes have usually been attributed to the fact that I’m a woman and a racial minority rather than the fact that I beat people in a fair test.”
Racial, cultural, homosexual prejudices are, unfortunately, very much alive in the fire service. Perhaps more so than many other professions, because of the tight-knit, largely white male, population.
Trailblazers
[/b]
Only in the last 30 years have women even started on the trail to gaining acceptance in the fire service. Those first women were trailblazers cutting a path for others to follow. But that path wasn’t easy for any of them.
When Jennifer Greer was first hired, the department was building a new station. They had included a handicapped bathroom, but had no separate facilities for the women firefighters. She inquired as to why this was and was told by a deputy chief that as long as he was on the job they would never build a “f*&^ing women’s locker room.”
“I told him,” Greer said, “that as long as I was on the job I’d never wait to use the facilities and I never did. Of course, my stance didn’t help my popularity any.”
Eventually a new fire chief was hired, and he supported the women in creating separate spaces. “It didn’t come to a head until one of the women declared she wouldn’t work in a station without a women’s locker room. It took a few years and a lot of hard feelings, but eventually every station was retrofitted with separate locker rooms.”
When asked if she was the trailblazer for her fire department, Greer said, “I was the third woman hired, but the first left the job before I got there. The second retired with a shoulder injury, so I’m the woman with the most seniority now. In many ways, I have been the trailblazer but I’m not the only one. There were battles that I didn’t take on. Someone else stepped up to the forefront.”
Even after many years on the job, Greer said, “There are still pockets of resistance about women in the fire service and about my sexuality.”
Cronin’s experience has differed in some respects. “They (the male firefighters) look at me like someone who tries hard, but never quite gets the job done,” she stated. “At least not to their satisfaction. There are those who are willing to help and that’s great, but sometimes the ones helping are condescending and it negates whatever support I might have gotten from them.
“I have a fear of heights and that was an issue for me, and even though some of the guys share that fear, it was seen as weakness in me because I’m a woman. The fact that I’m gay never really factored in. In fact, I get more teasing for being a vegetarian than anything else.”
Strong Women
[/b]
Despite all the hardships, prejudices, harassment, and negativity, these women and many more like them have chosen to enter into a career that has low pay, but high rewards.
“There’s nothing that can explain the feeling of going into a burning building,” Jodi Cronin said. “It’s an incredible rush of adrenaline to know that only you and your team stand in the way of someone losing their home or their business. It’s hot, it’s dark and it’s scary as hell, but you don’t notice any of that. You just go in, put out the fire and do your best to clean up what’s left.
“I know for a fact that in my 19 years of service I have directly affected the lives of hundreds of people. This isn’t a job to me. It’s not what I do…it’s who I am.”
Cronin’s attitude reflects that of most of her peers. Firefighters are people with a passion for helping others, a need for the rush of adrenaline that comes with each call, and the strength to stay on the job through the good times and the bad. I saw a t-shirt that sums this up nicely. It read, “All women are created equal; then a few become firefighters.”
As Alishia Ouellette said, “New things take a long time to gain acceptance in the fire service.” These women firefighters continue the effort to gain that acceptance.
Jennifer Greer’s comment expresses the effect these strong women will have on those who follow. “Each one of us makes it easier on whoever comes next.”
Author’s note: Some of the names of the women firefighters interviewed were changed to protect their anonymity.
Links of interest: [/b]
Women In the Fire Service, Inc. www.wfsi.org
National Association of Female Paramedics www.nafp.org
History of Volunteer Firefighters www.firefightersrealstories.com/volunteer.html
Stanford Magazine Interview with Caroline Paul www.stanfordalumni.org/news/magazine/1998/novdec/articles/firefighter.html
Support Groups:[/b]
Fire Flag www.fireflag.com
Golden State Peace Officers Association www.gspoa.com (an association of gay and lesbian peace officers and firefighters)
© 2004 Patty Schramm, Managing Editor, The L Files, A Division of Just About Write. Patty is currently a career firefighter and paramedic supervisor.
©2004 by Patty Schramm, EMT-P/FF
A Brief History
Benjamin Franklin established the first volunteer fire department in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, in 1736. In 1818, just 82 years later, Molly Williams was credited with being the first known woman volunteer firefighter. She was an African-American slave owned by New York merchant Benjamin Aymar, a firefighter of Oceanus Engine Company No. 11. She would go with him on calls and is credited with helping to drag the engine to the scene of a fire during the blizzard of 1818. Molly fought fires wearing a calico dress and checked apron. (Today’s firefighters wear 68 lbs. of protective gear.)
In 1820, Marina Betts was a volunteer in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, and said she never missed an alarm in ten years of service. Marina was known for dumping a bucket of water on any man that stood by and refused to join the bucket brigade. She left the department when she married one of the other firemen.
Much of the early history of women firefighters has been lost. Up until the 1970s, records weren’t kept of the hundreds, perhaps thousands, of women who served their communities on bucket brigades, fire watches, and volunteer fire companies. History does record that some all-women fire departments existed, and during World War II, many fire departments had only women firefighters available.
The first full-time female career firefighter was Judith Livers of Arlington County, Virginia. She became interested in the fire service while helping her firefighter husband study for his fire science courses. In 1974, she was hired by the fire department in Arlington County. Now Judith Brewer, she retired as battalion chief from the department in 1999.
Toni McIntosh is the earliest African-American woman career firefighter. In June of 1976, she was hired by Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, Fire Department. She was the only woman there for another 11 years.
Firefighting is not just another traditionally male-dominated job; it is a brotherhood—key word being “brother.” In the firefighting world, homophobia runs rampant and sexually explicit comments are commonplace.
But it is also an incredibly tight-knit, if not dysfunctional, family where any member would put his/her life on the line for another without hesitation.
In this brotherhood, women are often relegated to the sidelines as members of the “Women’s Auxiliary.” Their function is to provide fundraisers for the fire department, food for parties, or refreshments at the scene of a fire.
According to a survey by Women in the Fire Service, Inc., more than 40,000 females serve as volunteer firefighters in the U.S. and nearly 6,100 as full-time career firefighters. Several hundred of these firefighters are lieutenants or captains, and more than 60 are district, division, assistant, or battalion chiefs.
[/b]
The Sisterhood
[/b]
Caroline Paul[/b], an out lesbian firefighter for the city of San Francisco, told Stanford Magazine[/i] that the fact that she is gay was never a problem. If anything, she said the other firefighters expected it.
Any woman who would choose to enter a male-dominated career must be a dyke, right? Of course not, but it is still a perception shared by many. And if that woman is a lesbian, is it just accepted as a matter of course or is she shunned even more by her male peers?
I had the opportunity to interview three lesbian firefighters for this article, and to learn about their experiences on the job. The responses they gave me regarding race, sexuality, fairness, and the day-to-day work in the fire service contained many similarities and a few differences.[align=center]
[/align]Jennifer Greer,[/b] an African-American out lesbian, has been a career firefighter for 17 years. I asked if she had encountered any problems, such as open hostilities, she had this to say, “I am out at work and have been since very early in my career. I left the military with the intention of never having to hide my sexuality, but I wasn’t planning on making an issue of it either. My intention was thwarted within months of taking the job when I was followed to a local gay bar. I live and work in Colorado, home of Amendment 2 (stripping homosexuals of some of their rights, but later struck down), so it was a ‘big deal’ that I was gay and not ashamed.“My sexuality was and is an issue with a lot of people both on and off the job and caused a lot of problems early in my career. When I was new, my lovely was never allowed inside a fire station. If we wanted to visit or needed to talk, she had to wait outside and I’d go out to her. That was unconscionable considering she was a tax-paying citizen and the firehouse is public property. I also used to have to keep a close eye on my personal property and some of my gear. I lost a lot of things from people finding them and throwing them away just to make my life difficult and to make me feel unwelcome. I was never physically assaulted (unlike stories I’ve heard about other cities), but I usually had to do things alone (raise ladders, lift cots, carry equipment, clean house, etc.) that everyone else got help with. Thankfully, those days are gone.”
Jody Cronin,[/b] also an out lesbian, is a career firefighter from Ohio. Her response to my question was surprisingly different. “I have been in the fire service for 19 years, all of those years with the department in the town I grew up in. We’re a small Midwestern town with a population of around 2,500, so not much goes on that the rest of the town doesn’t know about. Growing up, I think a lot of my friends and classmates suspected I was gay long before I knew it.
“Two years ago, I became the first woman hired full time by my fire department. I had been a volunteer up to that point. Around that same time, I came out (slowly so as not to jeopardize my probationary status) to a few friends. My employers are mostly ‘rednecks’ who do nothing to dispel any of the stereotyping of rednecks, so I felt if they knew I was gay they would find a reason not to pass me from probation.
“My job is secure now, and I no longer hide my sexuality. I have known most of my co-workers since grade school, and I think that might have a lot to do with their acceptance. I’m not sure I’d get that kind of acceptance from another fire department.
“Just after I was hired, we hired a part-time fellow who was openly gay. He was the brunt of a lot of harassment, and though I couldn’t prove it, I’m sure he was let go during his probationary period because he was so openly gay. Ironically, one man, who went to school with most of us, recently came out as gay and he is still very much accepted as a member of the ‘family’ because he was on our fire department for many years.
“It’s kind of a ‘If you’re one of us, it’s okay. But if you’re an outsider, it’s not’ mentality.”
Alishia Ouellette[/b], a career firefighter from Massachusetts. She is also the only woman on the department. “I have had some incidents of extreme discriminatory actions and/or words. Most of the reactions (negative) have been of the subtle type—exclusion, refusal to use proper pronouns. Another area is the ‘traitor to my gender.’
“I have always disliked and have been outspoken about the way the men viewed women’s looks—or the lack of them—and the jokes that usually followed. I also disagreed with the stereotyping that a woman can’t do the job. On the other hand, I have seen women be checked off and passed on practical tests even though they could not do the assignment. I do not believe in passing anyone (female, minority, male, or trans), if they can’t do the work, just to keep the percentage quota. This has not changed to this day.”
Because of the stereotyping that women can’t do the jobs that men can, many women find they must constantly prove themselves to their male counterparts. Because many male firefighters still do view the job as a “brotherhood” there is often no room for women. By their reckoning, if a woman is allowed anywhere in the fire service, it is as an EMT (emergency medical technician), not as a firefighter. Breaking down that barrier and getting the men to accept a woman as part of the team is not an easy task.
Jennifer Greer said, “I’ve rarely felt like part of the team and firefighting is all about teamwork.”
Does this mean that these women who have managed to break down that barrier have to prove themselves to the men and other women of their fire departments?
“I’ve never felt I had to prove myself to anyone,” said Greer. “I think this is probably because I learned early on that as a black woman (child, back then), I was never going to be able to make everyone happy. I’m old enough that I’ve benefited from affirmative action, so most things I’ve accomplished (education, flying helicopters in the military, becoming a firefighter, etc.) have always been tainted by people (mainly white men but some women too) saying that I only got what I got because I was black or because I was a woman. This completely ignores the fact that I was competitive and could have accomplished what I’ve accomplished if I’d been given a fair chance.
“I think trying to prove oneself is a mistake that holds women back. I watch the new women on my job do this day after day, and I see how it wears on them. New men have an automatic acceptance that is never extended to new women. The new women try and try and try to be part of the team. Some of them even make it, but at a huge cost to their self-esteem and self worth. The guys eventually accept some of them, but usually just until they compete for a promotion with the women and lose. Then that acceptance gets thrown out the window, and the women are painted with the ‘you got it because you’re a woman’ brush and the women are back to being outsiders. It’s funny, but only then do they seek out other women on the job.”
Greer went on to say, “It was years before our department allowed women to ride on truck companies, and I think this was mainly because they thought that women weren’t strong enough.” It’s a given that she has had to work twice as hard as the men. It wasn’t a matter of proving herself, but a matter of survival. “Firefighting is physically and emotionally strenuous, and most men are physically stronger than most women are, so the labor comes easier to them. The emotional aspect of the job is challenging for me (and I believe most women), because in my experience, men just aren’t as introspective as women are. We need to process our experiences to help them have meaning, whereas men just do things and move on.
Within the next two years, Greer will be promoted to chief—the first female chief in her department’s history. “Still, even though I’ve been competitive in all of the promotional tests I’ve taken, my successes have usually been attributed to the fact that I’m a woman and a racial minority rather than the fact that I beat people in a fair test.”
Racial, cultural, homosexual prejudices are, unfortunately, very much alive in the fire service. Perhaps more so than many other professions, because of the tight-knit, largely white male, population.
Trailblazers
[/b]
Only in the last 30 years have women even started on the trail to gaining acceptance in the fire service. Those first women were trailblazers cutting a path for others to follow. But that path wasn’t easy for any of them.
When Jennifer Greer was first hired, the department was building a new station. They had included a handicapped bathroom, but had no separate facilities for the women firefighters. She inquired as to why this was and was told by a deputy chief that as long as he was on the job they would never build a “f*&^ing women’s locker room.”
“I told him,” Greer said, “that as long as I was on the job I’d never wait to use the facilities and I never did. Of course, my stance didn’t help my popularity any.”
Eventually a new fire chief was hired, and he supported the women in creating separate spaces. “It didn’t come to a head until one of the women declared she wouldn’t work in a station without a women’s locker room. It took a few years and a lot of hard feelings, but eventually every station was retrofitted with separate locker rooms.”
When asked if she was the trailblazer for her fire department, Greer said, “I was the third woman hired, but the first left the job before I got there. The second retired with a shoulder injury, so I’m the woman with the most seniority now. In many ways, I have been the trailblazer but I’m not the only one. There were battles that I didn’t take on. Someone else stepped up to the forefront.”
Even after many years on the job, Greer said, “There are still pockets of resistance about women in the fire service and about my sexuality.”
Cronin’s experience has differed in some respects. “They (the male firefighters) look at me like someone who tries hard, but never quite gets the job done,” she stated. “At least not to their satisfaction. There are those who are willing to help and that’s great, but sometimes the ones helping are condescending and it negates whatever support I might have gotten from them.
“I have a fear of heights and that was an issue for me, and even though some of the guys share that fear, it was seen as weakness in me because I’m a woman. The fact that I’m gay never really factored in. In fact, I get more teasing for being a vegetarian than anything else.”
Strong Women
[/b]
Despite all the hardships, prejudices, harassment, and negativity, these women and many more like them have chosen to enter into a career that has low pay, but high rewards.
“There’s nothing that can explain the feeling of going into a burning building,” Jodi Cronin said. “It’s an incredible rush of adrenaline to know that only you and your team stand in the way of someone losing their home or their business. It’s hot, it’s dark and it’s scary as hell, but you don’t notice any of that. You just go in, put out the fire and do your best to clean up what’s left.
“I know for a fact that in my 19 years of service I have directly affected the lives of hundreds of people. This isn’t a job to me. It’s not what I do…it’s who I am.”
Cronin’s attitude reflects that of most of her peers. Firefighters are people with a passion for helping others, a need for the rush of adrenaline that comes with each call, and the strength to stay on the job through the good times and the bad. I saw a t-shirt that sums this up nicely. It read, “All women are created equal; then a few become firefighters.”
As Alishia Ouellette said, “New things take a long time to gain acceptance in the fire service.” These women firefighters continue the effort to gain that acceptance.
Jennifer Greer’s comment expresses the effect these strong women will have on those who follow. “Each one of us makes it easier on whoever comes next.”
Author’s note: Some of the names of the women firefighters interviewed were changed to protect their anonymity.
Links of interest: [/b]
Women In the Fire Service, Inc. www.wfsi.org
National Association of Female Paramedics www.nafp.org
History of Volunteer Firefighters www.firefightersrealstories.com/volunteer.html
Stanford Magazine Interview with Caroline Paul www.stanfordalumni.org/news/magazine/1998/novdec/articles/firefighter.html
Support Groups:[/b]
Fire Flag www.fireflag.com
Golden State Peace Officers Association www.gspoa.com (an association of gay and lesbian peace officers and firefighters)
© 2004 Patty Schramm, Managing Editor, The L Files, A Division of Just About Write. Patty is currently a career firefighter and paramedic supervisor.
06-19-2005 | 05:29 PM
#6
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 266
Likes: 0
RE: some reading material for the chauvanists
for the record, im not a chauvanist, because i'm completely aware this is directed at me.
i agree with what those women say. my argument was not that a woman can't do the job. i am perfectly aware that you and many other women are fully capable of doing the job. im just against lowering standards. That's it. im sorry if i offended you, but im not going to lie about what i think to make you happy.
i agree with what those women say. my argument was not that a woman can't do the job. i am perfectly aware that you and many other women are fully capable of doing the job. im just against lowering standards. That's it. im sorry if i offended you, but im not going to lie about what i think to make you happy.
06-19-2005 | 08:24 PM
#7
Senior Member
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 4,103
Likes: 0
From: Ocean Springs, MS
RE: some reading material for the chauvanists
Now that's a bunch of snot! [:@]There are too few firefighters in the world today to worry about gender. If you want to wait for that male firefighter to pull you out, just wait.
06-19-2005 | 08:32 PM
#8
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 266
Likes: 0
RE: some reading material for the chauvanists
what? where did that come from ^^ I think you read that wrong....
i said i agree most women are fully qualified and some more than some men, but standards shouldnt be lowered ...?? im confused.
i said i agree most women are fully qualified and some more than some men, but standards shouldnt be lowered ...?? im confused.
06-19-2005 | 09:14 PM
#10
Thread Starter
Giant Nontypical
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 6,498
Likes: 0
From:
RE: some reading material for the chauvanists
ok.... if we're just talking about standards then i agree... they shouldn't be lowered at all... everyone should have to compete on the same level as i always have.