trees, trees, and more trees
 

i'm beginning to make plans for planting trees on my land this spring. any info would be appreciated.

i'd like to order a 100 2yr old sawtooth gobbler oaks. what nurseries have ya'll purchased sawtooth oaks from?
i'm planning to protect them from the deer by staking a 4' tall X 18" dia. wire "shield" using 4" chicken wire. any other ideas?
also i have an area close to my pond that i'd like someday be able to flood for waterfowl. when is it "safe" to flood sawtooth oaks (i.e. how many years for a tree to establish itself so that it could survive 60 days of standing water)?

also, i'd like to plant 10-12 apple trees in my food plots. i'll probably get the largest size apple trees that wally world sells and protect them from the critters by driving 3 metal fence posts in the ground and wrap chicken wire to create a 4' diameter circle around the trees. aside from gratuitious watering, any other ways i can improve my success rate?

what other trees should i be considering?

thanks

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RE: trees, trees, and more trees
 

Early Riser

Great info. I'm curious. Any way you could post a photo up close of a sawtooths leaf? May have them and dont' know it and all I'd have to do is fertilize.

What I have found is an oak leaf kind of like live oak but larger and thinner but with spines on the edges. I"m very poor at identity on trees and plants but learning.

If only there was a good book source of what deer eat in the woods and what to look for. Thats the result of growing up hunting deer feeders and not learning.....

Jeff

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RE: trees, trees, and more trees
 

Thanks, I am not 100% sure but that could be what I'm looking at. I also need to find out if the deer prefer the pin oak acorns or something other that I need to look for.

I'll check out the book link. Maybe I can web order it. Not off anti hunting/gun amazon though. I'm about 1.5 hours from any type of book store.

BTW what exactly is a crabapple?? Is there another or different name? Its not a bois d arc by chance?

Thanks again, Jeff

RE: trees, trees, and more trees
 

A word of caution do not drown your trees with 60 days of water. At least not for the first couple of years. I planted some sawtooth oaks in a flood plain and they were doing OK the first year. Last year we had some one-hundred year floods and they died within a month of being soaked with water. I almost cried!! I lost about 50 trees; it's a good thing that the CREP paid for them.

RE: trees, trees, and more trees
 

here's a sawtooth oak leaf:



kansas forest service has conservation seedlings available: http://www.kansasforests.org/conservation/index.shtml

i'm ordering 100 sawtooth oaks to replace all the thorny-az osage orange and locust trees i cut last summer. k.f.s. didn't have any gobbler sawtooths available, so i'll probably wait till next year. are there any differences between the two besides acorn size?

i'm still not sure what oak seedlings to plant in the area i'd like to eventually flood in the late fall for waterfowl habitat. after doing a little research, i've decided gobbler sawtooths might not be the best candidate. i'm willing to wait 8-9 yrs before i begin annual fall flooding to allow the trees time to become established and produce mast ---- BUT i don't want to wait for more than a decade!

Baras, reported wood ducks preference for willow oak mast ( http://www.pwrc.usgs.gov/prodabs/ab0...nski%20JWM.pdf ). willow oak is a fast growing oak and is classified as a facultative wetland — usually found in wetlands, 67-99%.

pin oaks are abundant in my area, especially in the floodplains in close proximity to rivers. my first duck hunts as a child took place in flooded pin oaks, so i know they will survive annual flooding. they grow rapidly, but can take 15-20 years before producing acorns..

nuttall oak, cherrybark oak, and swamp water oak are also possibilities for wetland plantings, but i'll need to do some more research.

helpful links:
http://www.mldda.org/wetlandbankattachment3.htm
http://www.treesearch.fs.fed.us/

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RE: trees, trees, and more trees
 

I see Sawtooth oaks are the popular one... What is the advantage of the sawtooth oak over other oaks???

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RE: trees, trees, and more trees
 

Early Riser is dead on. Join Quality Deer Management Assocation $25 well spent plus discounts on all trees, plots etc. Up here in the Northeast and Mid-atlantic region we do well with sawtooth and gobbler sawtooth oak. Good luck! Try to make a year long calendar for habitat improvements. ex. Jan. while forest is thin do clear-cut. Leave stump as this produce limb suckers, which equals winter browse. Feb. Brush piles for small game. March lime plots. keep it simple. do something different each month and you will notice different things about the outdoors. Just being there is why I continue. Try trail cameras (a cheap one will do. Under $80 cabelas.) you will be surprised at whats out there.

RE: trees, trees, and more trees
 

Early-- Have to hunt on public land. Which makes planting questionable. But can you get those crapapple seeds somehow. IE if I put out 1000 seeds here and there vs 100 trees.. Does anyone even offer saplings?

Jeff

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RE: trees, trees, and more trees
 

Early

First, thank you for your valuable time to help inform me. I've finally got the number of the local wildlife biologist to help me too.

I understand about seeding the apples now. Seems fair enough.

Are they available as small trees or is it like the wild plums here at home. They are wild and you can't buy stock.

Sawtooth I'll be working on seeding AND pruning/fertilizing what I find.

THanks, Jeff

RE: trees, trees, and more trees
 

EarlyRiser see you are a writer to by the disclaimer. Like you work.
Keep it simple! WW

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RE: trees, trees, and more trees
 

not sure where ur at Strm, but in NY and other states, local soil & water conservation districts have an annual tree & shrub sale in the spring. they sell bare root seedlings (2-5 yrs old or so). many species are available (we have over 70 species in our sale this year). spring can be a fine time to plant trees, kinda hard to plant now in the NE with 6 inches of snow and frozen ground.

RE: trees, trees, and more trees
 

You can join QDMA and buy trees from them at below 1.00 each. they have many varieties. Which you should consider. Remember, don't put all your eggs in one basket. If one type don't work you'd better have a back up plan. Or you could lose another seasons growth.

RE: trees, trees, and more trees
 

doughboysigep,
my land is in s.e. kansas. kansas does have a seedling program for landowners and i've been in contact w/ the kansas forestry service conservation program coordinator to get more info concerning my upcoming tree planting.

seedling planting ?'s:
should i create the seedling hole w/ a shovel or dibble spade?
will using a rooting hormone stimulator improve seedling success?
what seedling protection is worth the cost? the rigid seedling protectors ( http://www.benmeadows.com/store/prod...parent_id=5633 ) seem to be the only "reasonably" priced protector.
is one type or brand of mulch advantageous?

RE: trees, trees, and more trees
 

You definitely need a tree book. The Bois D'Arc is the Osage Orange (Bois D'Arc is french for wood of the bow. Before fiberglass, it was the best of the bow woods). Better get a hard bound book, you'll wear out a paperback.
The Pin or Willow oak is not really a good forage tree, a very beautiful shade tree and grows extremely tall.
One other tree not memtioned; Pear trees. deer will clean them up, especially after a good frost causes them to soften.

Russ

RE: trees, trees, and more trees
 

Russ-- of course I need a book. Its why I asked and have the answers but have not made a choice yet. FWIW locally the Osage Orange is called both Horseapple and Bois D Arc so thought it worth mentioning could it be referred to as crabapple also? In KS where I sent a big piece to be turned to a rifle stock(heavy but looks great) they even call it some type of bush but I can't recall that name either.

So many local names for things versus what they really are. Lots to learn. Only thing I used to know is that yellow corn came from deer feeders and deer came to them ;)

Jeff

RE: trees, trees, and more trees
 

Here is what I have been told/do:

best to clear the area of grass/weeds
dig a hole big enough for all of the roots to fit (and a bit more)
make sure all roots are in hole and in a downward orientation
refill hole and firmly pack soil (if you want to be fancy, you can mix in peat moss or other organic substance)
water well at planting (do not leave seedlings to soak in bucket of water)
fertilizer pellets help the seedlings get going (do not put fert in direct contact with the roots - they'll burn), pop a hole about a foot away and drop pellets in


as for tree shelters:
I have never used them but they can help greatly, however it can be quite costly if planting a bunch of trees. I usually don't have much invested (I get left overs) so I never use them. what grows grows, what doesn', oh well. I usually don't spend a lot of time and cut corners and have had decent results (again, not much investment if they die)
I tried to keep track of what I palnt but there got to be so many it is hard. if you want to keep good track use marking flags.

RE: trees, trees, and more trees
 

Rost,
The name "Horse Apple" came about due to the fruit the tree produces. It is green, knobby and about 4 inches in diameter, and as hard as a rock. It was said that horses will eat them, but the ones in a pasture that I knew of, none of the horses would touch them. They're great for chasing cockroaches out of a house. Put one in a aluminum pie tin and put it in a cupboard. (The juices will stain). They last about a month. Farmers in Illinois planted them in fence rows. A thick row of them with their thorns would make a great cattle fence. (The trees originally came from the southern mississippi valley.)

Russ

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RE: trees, trees, and more trees
 

here in kansas, osage orange is called a lot of things........................................ immediately after an explicitive!

imo---osage orange has served its purpose (windbreaks during the dustbowl)... we've always called it hedge, and it's fruit we call hedgeballs (real creative, huh?)... i cut all (but one) of the osage orange and locust trees i encountered in last summer chainsaw massacre (probably cut the tree population on our place in half)..... we sprayed the stumps w/ some industrial strength juice after felling the tree...... next month i'm planning to try the "barrel burner" method to finish 'em off. hopefully this will reduce the # of stumps i gotta' dodge on the tracter...
nothing will burn up a saw blade faster than osage o. and the thorns are usually everywhere.... they hurt like a bee sting (or getting finned by a catfish).......


anywho-----good riddance! when growing in groves, the straight limbs are cut into posts for fencing (our posts went to western neb.).... we actually made pretty decent $$ (as opposed to not making money on a weekend) by selling the posts... my buddy in the pic is a foreman on a 3-man bucket truck for a private tree removal contractor, so needless to say, he did most of the cutting and i stayed on the tractor...


here's what a locust looks like close up... real friendly-looking tree, huh?!?!?!


i'm going to plant 50 sawtooths, a few apple, and maybe a few pears (good idea, russ) in the clearings created last summer...
i'll plant the rest of the sawtooths along a fence row we pulled out a few years ago.... there's a narrow (50 yds by 1/2 mile) strip of native grass (switchgrass and indiangrass primarily) in between the fence row sawtooth plantings and the clearcut sawtooths planted... this tall grass should provide excellent cover and bedding areas...........




GREENTREE RESERVOIR
i think i might be confusing ya'...... i have 5-6 acres of lowland type habitat which drains around a large pond built by the w.p.a. years ago.
at some point in the future (?? years) the pond will have to be drained and 80+years of silt will need to be removed...... ya' gotta put all that silt somewhere.... the shortest distance the dozer has to push the silt the better (i.e. cheaper).... a new dike to facilitate draining will create a bypass ditch around the pond and the silt won't be able to wash back in....

with this in mind, i would like to plant 3 acres of oak trees next month (half area planted now and the other half after pond work is complete) in the lowland.... i'll will ultimately be able to control flooding in this oak marsh, but i only want to plant oaks that are classified as facultative wetland to avoid the frustration of a spring flood killing trees suited for upland settings (i.e. sawtooth oaks)...

Mallard Oaks

pin oaks (Quercus palustris) should be producing acorns within 15 years if managed properly..... the pin oak's acorn is a highly
desirable food for waterfowl probably b/c of its small size and late season maturation....

willow oaks (Quercus phellos) are also fast growers that produce annual crops of small acorns after 15 years of growth in optimal conditions...

i haven't decided which oak will be the third constitute in the greentree reservoir, any suggestions? i'd like an oak which was dropping acorns within 10 years of planting..

does anyone have any experience planting hybrid oaks?

RE: trees, trees, and more trees
 

Wow, how is this for confusion. Our "Bois D Arc" " Horseapple" trees grow the same apples as mentioned. Heavy, size of grapefruit, green and knobby. Cows eat them. Don't have any horses. But we don't have thorns like stormchzr shows. But we do have a tree that has thorns just exactly like that. Found in low wet areas(semi swamps) I've tried to replant into the yard since the thorns are interesting and not many folks have seen them unless you are out and about a bit.

FWIW Steve McGee that cut my stock said in KS they called that wood Hedge also. But it may not be exactly the same.

Green BDA won't do a chain too bad. Now cutting the trunk into a stock blank after 2 years drying and it turning from yellow(wet) to brown(seasoned) is another story. The Stihl and its sharp chain were not happy. But we do have corner posts from BDA that we know from early survey calls are appx 85 years old. Pulled them to rebuild fence. Cut off about 6 inches of rot at the bottom and reseated. Never mind not ever getting a staple into the post.

Funny how things are the same yet differ. And probably due to misinformation.

Jeff

RE: trees, trees, and more trees
 

This is a very interesting thread.

Dan O.

RE: trees, trees, and more trees
 

hedge posts will be holding fence long after metal posts "rot"

RE: trees, trees, and more trees
 

Good price on SAWTOOTH OAKS at Cold Stream Farms: www.coldstreamfarm.net

Anyone have experiences with PERSIMMON? I hear deer lover them & they are easy to grow if you are in the correct Zone.

RE: trees, trees, and more trees
 

same horseapple fruit as on our BDA trees. But no thorns on the trees. Well a few but nothing like those huge ones. And I talked with a survey buddy. We found those huge thorns in the bottoms when surveying but he never recalls them being a BDA or having any type of fruit at any point in the year.

Now I wished my lab hadn't decided it was fun to chew up the last thorn tree I'd transplanted.......... It would have had some size by now.

Jeff

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RE: trees, trees, and more trees
 

Ok Next!! The large persimmon picture(BTW way thank you all I'm learning extremely fast....) is what we have in the garden for mom. The small orange ones(you did have a picture of that right- about golf ball size) were "wild" But then in what we call the TX hill country they wild ones are mostly bushes with slick bark and the persimmons start a bit smaller than a golf ball mostly and are green and then turn dark purple as they ripen. Do I have a conflict of names again??? I know the deer go a long way as do hogs to find these dark persimmons.

Jeff

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RE: trees, trees, and more trees
 

I've got a variety called "Early Golden" growing on my farm near Niagara Falls. It ripens and starts dropping nicely around the beginning of October. My seedlings don't start dropping until November in a warm year.

Dan O.

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