Deer Managment
12-20-2004, 06:39 AM
#1
Thread Starter
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 3
Deer Managment
HELP
We have been hunting a track of land approx 200 +/- acres for over 7 years.
we are the only ones that have been hunting this land.
This property is 40 miles from N.Y. City and we only use bow, we only shoot basket bucks, but now we have been seeing more spikes then normal, but we dont shoot them because we want them to get to 2.5 years or better, we are hoping that this is why we are shooting more basket bucks.
My question is are we creating a herd of spike bucks ?
We have been hunting a track of land approx 200 +/- acres for over 7 years.
we are the only ones that have been hunting this land.
This property is 40 miles from N.Y. City and we only use bow, we only shoot basket bucks, but now we have been seeing more spikes then normal, but we dont shoot them because we want them to get to 2.5 years or better, we are hoping that this is why we are shooting more basket bucks.
My question is are we creating a herd of spike bucks ?
12-20-2004, 07:07 AM
#2
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Roanoke, VA
Posts: 730
RE: Deer Managment
Kizzy, on the land we hunt we try to take eight pointers or better. We have seen a higher number of spikes than usual. But, I believe this is due to the fact that we went through some severe drought years and have not had any acorns for the last four years in a row.
That being said, if I see a spike that weighs more than 130 lbs. (2.5 yo) I will take that deer. IMO if he hasn't grown more than a spike set of antlers by then he probably won't. I saw a spike a few years ago that would have weighed 170 lbs. (3.5 yo) We should have taken that deer, but were ignorant of the fact; because we were just starting the management plan. My neighbor killed that deer two years later;still a spike, and it weighed over 200lbs. A huge deer for our neck of the woods!
That being said, if I see a spike that weighs more than 130 lbs. (2.5 yo) I will take that deer. IMO if he hasn't grown more than a spike set of antlers by then he probably won't. I saw a spike a few years ago that would have weighed 170 lbs. (3.5 yo) We should have taken that deer, but were ignorant of the fact; because we were just starting the management plan. My neighbor killed that deer two years later;still a spike, and it weighed over 200lbs. A huge deer for our neck of the woods!
12-21-2004, 08:10 PM
#3
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location:
Posts: 1,572
RE: Deer Managment
ORIGINAL: kizzy
My question is are we creating a herd of spike bucks ?
My question is are we creating a herd of spike bucks ?
You don't want inferior bucks to enter the breeding population and possibly remain there for their entire lives because you only shoot 3 point or better for example. You should also consider harvesting does so sex ratio problems don't arise from buck only harvests.
Now this can be taken too far. If not enough spikes are surviving to enter the breeding population then your herd will start to decline in numbers and health.
Of course habitat also plays a huge role in this. For example Ohio has one of the best maybe the best deer herd in the county. They have approx. 80-90% of their yearling bucks taken each year. But that also goes along with an aggressive antlerless harvest.
I don't really know what Criggster is talking about honestly. In my opinion as a biologist he is going down the wrong road. I don't think protecting spikes and possibly genetically inferior bucks is a good idea. I think he is seeing the effects of that by seeing a high number of spikes that should have branched antlers, but possibly due to genetic reasons, do not. So by harvesting large mature bucks he is actually removing the "good" genetics and protecting the "bad".
12-21-2004, 10:05 PM
#4
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 638
RE: Deer Managment
Around here bucks that are 1 1/2 years old do very little to absoluty no breeding, so by passing on a 1 1/2 year old spike your really not hurting anything. But if I see a spike that I believe to be 2 1/2+ I will make sure that deer gets taken out of the herd before the rut starts.
If I was you, I would not shoot every single buck I saw just because he has a "basket rack". Try passing on those deer and allow them to mature some. It will only benefit you in the years to come. And dont be afraid to harvest does, this year on the ranch were taking 8 does for every buck that is harvested.
If I was you, I would not shoot every single buck I saw just because he has a "basket rack". Try passing on those deer and allow them to mature some. It will only benefit you in the years to come. And dont be afraid to harvest does, this year on the ranch were taking 8 does for every buck that is harvested.
12-21-2004, 10:05 PM
#5
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: cazenovia, NY USA
Posts: 2,973
RE: Deer Managment
My first thought is that the basket racks you are harvesting - were likely spikes, and forkhorns the year before - and are 2.5 yrs old. Have you aged the deer you have harvested?
Not all areas have Kansas or Illinois Genetics - in some areas in NY, many basket rack 6 and 8 points are 2.5 years old. I suspect that since you do not mention the occasional 20" eight point - that this could be your case. Still - you should be able to expect some nice 2.5 year old 16"-18" racks.
The increase in spikes you are seeing is likely one of 2 things - or a combination of two:
1. The deer are overpopulated - and nutritional and environmental stresses associated with too many deer - limit the antler potential of local bucks. Usually the overpopulation is skewed towards does.
2. The last 2 winters were long & cold (and maybe snowy? I'm not sure for your area) - If forage potential was limited in Feb & March - antler and fawn development suffer.
Symptoms of both cases are similar:
1. Grown deer dressing out less than 100 lbs (in NY)
2. very small fawns - indicating late breeding
3. few twin fawns.
4. A high doe: buck ratio.
The #1 remedy - shoot as many does as legal.
#2 - offer additional forage if possible.
Keep in mind that 80% of the Bucks on your property - will come from 5-50 miles away as they disperse between March and November when they grow thier 1st set of antlers. So far my observations on buck dispersal have indicated that bucks tend to seek out areas with good bedding - other bucks, and very good late summer/fall food sources when they relocate.
Notice I did not mention an area with a "High Doe Population".
Contrary to some lines of thought - protecting the does does little to attract the bucks come next fall. This is because in a healthy population - the dispersing bucks are NOT likely to breed the Majority of the doe population. The Majority of a healthy doe population all come into estrous within a 2 week period - and for the most part - the bucks that are 2.5+ have laid claim to the property - and the local does will be bred by them. Relocating (dispersing) bucks are more concerned with finding a secure environment in which they can work their way up the heirarchy - in the next year.
Not sure if that answers your concerns - or raises more questions - but if you are interested - do some searches on the topic - it is a facinating natural process - that is really at the heart of deer management as we know it today.
Not all areas have Kansas or Illinois Genetics - in some areas in NY, many basket rack 6 and 8 points are 2.5 years old. I suspect that since you do not mention the occasional 20" eight point - that this could be your case. Still - you should be able to expect some nice 2.5 year old 16"-18" racks.
The increase in spikes you are seeing is likely one of 2 things - or a combination of two:
1. The deer are overpopulated - and nutritional and environmental stresses associated with too many deer - limit the antler potential of local bucks. Usually the overpopulation is skewed towards does.
2. The last 2 winters were long & cold (and maybe snowy? I'm not sure for your area) - If forage potential was limited in Feb & March - antler and fawn development suffer.
Symptoms of both cases are similar:
1. Grown deer dressing out less than 100 lbs (in NY)
2. very small fawns - indicating late breeding
3. few twin fawns.
4. A high doe: buck ratio.
The #1 remedy - shoot as many does as legal.
#2 - offer additional forage if possible.
Keep in mind that 80% of the Bucks on your property - will come from 5-50 miles away as they disperse between March and November when they grow thier 1st set of antlers. So far my observations on buck dispersal have indicated that bucks tend to seek out areas with good bedding - other bucks, and very good late summer/fall food sources when they relocate.
Notice I did not mention an area with a "High Doe Population".
Contrary to some lines of thought - protecting the does does little to attract the bucks come next fall. This is because in a healthy population - the dispersing bucks are NOT likely to breed the Majority of the doe population. The Majority of a healthy doe population all come into estrous within a 2 week period - and for the most part - the bucks that are 2.5+ have laid claim to the property - and the local does will be bred by them. Relocating (dispersing) bucks are more concerned with finding a secure environment in which they can work their way up the heirarchy - in the next year.
Not sure if that answers your concerns - or raises more questions - but if you are interested - do some searches on the topic - it is a facinating natural process - that is really at the heart of deer management as we know it today.
12-21-2004, 10:09 PM
#6
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 638
RE: Deer Managment
BrutalAttack:
Not really, we only take out mature or post mature deer, and we have an awesome deer herd with great genetics.
I hunt on a couple of different ranches and each one has its own management plan. Its funny how some things very so much from one piece of property to the next, but they all have quality deer running around. I guess it goes to show that there are many ways to do something, yet end up with the same product.
So by harvesting large mature bucks he is actually removing the "good" genetics and protecting the "bad".
I hunt on a couple of different ranches and each one has its own management plan. Its funny how some things very so much from one piece of property to the next, but they all have quality deer running around. I guess it goes to show that there are many ways to do something, yet end up with the same product.
12-22-2004, 08:56 AM
#7
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location:
Posts: 1,572
RE: Deer Managment
ORIGINAL: TXhighrack
BrutalAttack:
Not really, we only take out mature or post mature deer, and we have an awesome deer herd with great genetics.
I hunt on a couple of different ranches and each one has its own management plan. Its funny how some things very so much from one piece of property to the next, but they all have quality deer running around. I guess it goes to show that there are many ways to do something, yet end up with the same product.
BrutalAttack:
So by harvesting large mature bucks he is actually removing the "good" genetics and protecting the "bad".
I hunt on a couple of different ranches and each one has its own management plan. Its funny how some things very so much from one piece of property to the next, but they all have quality deer running around. I guess it goes to show that there are many ways to do something, yet end up with the same product.
Yes situations and habitats vary...im pretty certain I mentioned that. The point of that post was to bring to light some of the recent research supporting spike and doe harvest for QDM, please don't think I'm trying to apply a "one size fits all" answer to some complex situations.
Aside from that. It's a simple fact of natural selection that if you remove too many of the dominant animals your not doing your herd any favors genetically. I think we can agree on that.
12-22-2004, 09:36 AM
#8
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Roanoke, VA
Posts: 730
RE: Deer Managment
Brutual Attack, are you saying that a 2.5 year old deer that is only a spike may become a deer with say a 6 point rack during the next season? Where I am from most of the 1.5 year old deer are spikes, if we shot them with out giving them a chance to grow we would be defeating the purpose! We do shoot the bigger and older spikes that will not develop bigger racks.
But, on the other hand if we give them more time to grow, and they don't develop anything more than a spike rack we don't want those deer breeding the does and possibly passing on that trait. Read my original post about the old spike that became nothing more than that. We also have the bad drought and non-existent acorn crop to consider. If we had good years for acorns and rain we would see better racks.
Genetics will be passed on whether the deer is breeding at 2.5 years old or 10.5 years old. Genes are genes and will remain the same no matter the age of the animal.
We are shooting the mature deer;because, that is what we want. We used to shoot anything legal. And, we rarely saw a deer bigger than a six pointer. Since QDM we see several mature deer with racks that are six points or better. We have improved the quality and the numbers of mature deer. Simple as that!
But, on the other hand if we give them more time to grow, and they don't develop anything more than a spike rack we don't want those deer breeding the does and possibly passing on that trait. Read my original post about the old spike that became nothing more than that. We also have the bad drought and non-existent acorn crop to consider. If we had good years for acorns and rain we would see better racks.
Genetics will be passed on whether the deer is breeding at 2.5 years old or 10.5 years old. Genes are genes and will remain the same no matter the age of the animal.
We are shooting the mature deer;because, that is what we want. We used to shoot anything legal. And, we rarely saw a deer bigger than a six pointer. Since QDM we see several mature deer with racks that are six points or better. We have improved the quality and the numbers of mature deer. Simple as that!
12-22-2004, 10:08 AM
#9
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location:
Posts: 1,572
RE: Deer Managment
ORIGINAL: Criggster
Brutual Attack, are you saying that a 2.5 year old deer that is only a spike may become a deer with say a 6 point rack during the next season? Where I am from most of the 1.5 year old deer are spikes, if we shot them with out giving them a chance to grow we would be defeating the purpose!
Brutual Attack, are you saying that a 2.5 year old deer that is only a spike may become a deer with say a 6 point rack during the next season? Where I am from most of the 1.5 year old deer are spikes, if we shot them with out giving them a chance to grow we would be defeating the purpose!
What I'm saying is: by not taking spikes you are (theorhetically) letting the inferior bucks breed, thereby passing on inferior genes and then your killing the dominant bucks, and promoting a situation were the less dominant bucks will do more of the breeding, which extends the breeding period, which means less does will get bred and more does will concieve later and thus lowering fawn survival. So I wouldn't be surprised if you have more spikes running around than usual. Seems pretty simple to me. You kill the dominant bucks and protect the scrubs....that's what you said right? Look I'm not making this stuff up. I don't know the entire situation on your land but I'm giving my opinion based on what you said.
12-22-2004, 05:09 PM
#10
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Roanoke, VA
Posts: 730
RE: Deer Managment
We don't protect the scrubs, but we do give the young 1.5 year old deer, mostly spikes, the chance to grow bigger antlers. If we shot all of the spikes we would have very few deer that would make it past 1.5 years old. That is the case in our national forests. We shoot the older, bigger deer that do not develop into anything bigger as far as rack size, and the eight pointers that are mature.
Here in our neck of the woods we don't see the kind of deer that are in other places. Most of our 1.5 year olds, approximately 80%, are spikes. They just don't get as big as deer do in other parts of the country. But, we are trying to provide them with the nutrition and age to get bigger. We know our herd well enough to know what they should weigh in a certain year class with reasonable accuracy. I watch these deer throughout the year and have for 15 years. If you don't judge the age by body weight then what have you got to judge them by? They won't let you age them by opening up their mouths while they are still alive. We killed those young bucks in the past; therefore, we have some background info. Most of the people practicing QDM judge the deer's age by their body weight and body features. A gray muzzle, thick chest, sagging belly, etc.
We kill the dominant bucks; because that is what we want to kill; otherwise we would be back to where we started. Killing only small bucks. It works for us; we are indeed killing bigger bucks.
Here in our neck of the woods we don't see the kind of deer that are in other places. Most of our 1.5 year olds, approximately 80%, are spikes. They just don't get as big as deer do in other parts of the country. But, we are trying to provide them with the nutrition and age to get bigger. We know our herd well enough to know what they should weigh in a certain year class with reasonable accuracy. I watch these deer throughout the year and have for 15 years. If you don't judge the age by body weight then what have you got to judge them by? They won't let you age them by opening up their mouths while they are still alive. We killed those young bucks in the past; therefore, we have some background info. Most of the people practicing QDM judge the deer's age by their body weight and body features. A gray muzzle, thick chest, sagging belly, etc.
We kill the dominant bucks; because that is what we want to kill; otherwise we would be back to where we started. Killing only small bucks. It works for us; we are indeed killing bigger bucks.