Second Growth forest in Northern Dacks
11-02-2004, 03:48 PM
#1
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Fort Covington, NY
Posts: 118
Second Growth forest in Northern Dacks
I am a new associate member in an old deer camp in Franklin County NY. This means I have no voting rights, and am pretty far down the totem pole. This is a typical deer camp among the the old paper company holdings. The land that the camp sits on is wholly owned, and the surrounding 300 acres are a long term lease, so we will stay there after the Forever Wild laws drive many of our neighbors out.
Here is what we have. Second or probably third or fourth growth hardwood that has last been logged about 17 years ago. Extensive systems of skidder trails snake through the property. Some areas of what I would call pine bottoms that are lower elevation areas that contain primarily evergreens, and some swamp terrain. The property is liitered with springs. The hardwoods are mainly Maple, and Beech, mixed with alot of Birch. There is very little table land, and most of it requires the traits of a billy goat to travel. The elevation runs from about 1400 feet to about 1800 feet. Many of you I'm sure are aware of the bygone days of bagging "camp meat", and there was a time when does were hunted hard from time to time. The deer population is poor as you may guess. Logging as far as we know, will not be a factor any time soon, but we have permission to selectively harvest trees for heating, etc. The canopy is pretty thick, and the visiblity for hunters at ground level has deteriorated quite a bit in recent years.
What are we to do? What would be a good first step?
Here is what we have. Second or probably third or fourth growth hardwood that has last been logged about 17 years ago. Extensive systems of skidder trails snake through the property. Some areas of what I would call pine bottoms that are lower elevation areas that contain primarily evergreens, and some swamp terrain. The property is liitered with springs. The hardwoods are mainly Maple, and Beech, mixed with alot of Birch. There is very little table land, and most of it requires the traits of a billy goat to travel. The elevation runs from about 1400 feet to about 1800 feet. Many of you I'm sure are aware of the bygone days of bagging "camp meat", and there was a time when does were hunted hard from time to time. The deer population is poor as you may guess. Logging as far as we know, will not be a factor any time soon, but we have permission to selectively harvest trees for heating, etc. The canopy is pretty thick, and the visiblity for hunters at ground level has deteriorated quite a bit in recent years.
What are we to do? What would be a good first step?
11-03-2004, 06:33 PM
#2
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location:
Posts: 1,572
RE: Second Growth forest in Northern Dacks
What is the structure of the stands near where you hunt? By what your saying it's pretty thick (mostly shrubs and small trees) so visiability is limited. If this is the case and your concerned about sight distance there isn't much you can do besides burn it or wait about 80 years for a canopy to develop or make some tree stands to get above. It shouldn't be THAT bad of forage for whitetails if it's regenerating stands so I'm skeptical as to why your herd would be in poor shape. Can you give more detailed information? Such as what is the average height of the uppermost canopy layer? How big are the trees in general..what species etc?
11-03-2004, 06:58 PM
#3
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Walnut MS USA
Posts: 871
RE: Second Growth forest in Northern Dacks
Is the canopy open enough to plant some food plots? I'm not talking about fields; but places where a plot the size of a ball diamond. If there isn't much food, even little plots will help. How about the skidder trails? Strips of Rye, Oats, Clover may help bring in the deer and also provide browse on the site. Got any Honeysuckle? Fertilize it, a great browse. Maybe plant some Sawtooth Oaks, quick growth and not too long to wait for acorns compared to White or Red Oaks.
Salt and mineral licks are mostly good in the spring as usage tapers off as forage gets dryer.
Remember, you don't have to think big on plots sometimes little ones can work real good. I have over 6 plots, the biggest about 1/2 acre. Think small to start out.
Russ
Salt and mineral licks are mostly good in the spring as usage tapers off as forage gets dryer.
Remember, you don't have to think big on plots sometimes little ones can work real good. I have over 6 plots, the biggest about 1/2 acre. Think small to start out.
Russ
11-03-2004, 07:05 PM
#4
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Walnut MS USA
Posts: 871
RE: Second Growth forest in Northern Dacks
Back again. Are those trees small? What about pruning lower limbs to open some areas. Trees have a tendency to grow taller that way and also have better and stronger trunks. Visibility will improve a lot at ground level. And it will give you a better view through the timbers.
Russ
Russ
11-03-2004, 07:17 PM
#5
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Fort Covington, NY
Posts: 118
RE: Second Growth forest in Northern Dacks
The trees are 17 to 20 years old, and mostly grown to the point where the browse is out of reach to the deer. What beech trees there are, seem to be too immature to produce nuts in any amount. Due to the logging, there are very few mature dominant trees, but there are literally thousands of these smaller immature trees, that really obscure the view, yet still keep the ground in shade for the most part. Planting the skidder roads, is one idea we have kicked around. Funny you should mention Honeysuckle, I just read an article about it, and am looking for a variety that would be hardy here.
11-03-2004, 11:19 PM
#6
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location:
Posts: 1,572
RE: Second Growth forest in Northern Dacks
I would suggest brush removal/pruning but that seems too labor intensive to really make any difference. I'd say wait till the driest part of the year and accidently knock over a gas can and then accidently drop a lit match..
Seriously though, try planting some shade tolerant forage species in small test plots and see what kind of results you get. I'm loath to advocate you planting non-native species so try to find something that occurs in the area or at least in the region. Exotic species can cause HUGE problems and have rippling effect that can virtually effect any aspect of the ecosystem from plant communities to big game.
Seriously though, try planting some shade tolerant forage species in small test plots and see what kind of results you get. I'm loath to advocate you planting non-native species so try to find something that occurs in the area or at least in the region. Exotic species can cause HUGE problems and have rippling effect that can virtually effect any aspect of the ecosystem from plant communities to big game.
11-16-2004, 09:49 PM
#7
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: cazenovia, NY USA
Posts: 2,973
RE: Second Growth forest in Northern Dacks
Sounds like a wonderful bedding area - with high quality forage in browse. I wouldn't - and you probably cannot - change much.
The land will "open up" over time - and you will long for the days of thickets and abundant browse.
What you really need to do is to learn the best bedding areas - and browse areas - they are not probably too far apart - but not usually the same places - and learn to hunt it effectively.
Once the best browsing areas are determined - you might want to consider supplementally fertilizing the area with 13-13-13 or another reccomended fertilizer - as long as its OK. This will go a long ways to helping you pattern the deer. You will have to re-evalute your plan every couple years as the wood ages.
When our fields went to woods - (Mid 1960s) the 1980s were the most productive years for the deer herd.
The land will "open up" over time - and you will long for the days of thickets and abundant browse.
What you really need to do is to learn the best bedding areas - and browse areas - they are not probably too far apart - but not usually the same places - and learn to hunt it effectively.
Once the best browsing areas are determined - you might want to consider supplementally fertilizing the area with 13-13-13 or another reccomended fertilizer - as long as its OK. This will go a long ways to helping you pattern the deer. You will have to re-evalute your plan every couple years as the wood ages.
When our fields went to woods - (Mid 1960s) the 1980s were the most productive years for the deer herd.
11-20-2004, 07:19 AM
#8
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Fort Covington, NY
Posts: 118
RE: Second Growth forest in Northern Dacks
farmhunter,
That's just the problem. The hunting there was very good for a few years after the last logging operation, due to the large quantity of forage from the new trees starting out. In the last decade however the trees have in large part grown out of the deer's reach. There are very few mature beech trees left as well so the mast crop is nearly non existant. Near home I hunt a couple abandoned farms, and I wish the conditions were the same up at camp. We are formulating a plan to target a few areas such as intersections of skidder trails were the canopy is not quite so thick to do some selective tree harvesting, and create some small openings in the canopy. We will over the next few years create a number of these small spots to plant food plots. I have found a non invasive hardy honeysuckle(coral honeysuckle) that will grow there, and I am going to plant 50 to 100 plants along one wide area of a skidder trail. I am also going to target a few stands of young beeches and clear all of the other trees from the area to help the nut trees get a head start.
That's just the problem. The hunting there was very good for a few years after the last logging operation, due to the large quantity of forage from the new trees starting out. In the last decade however the trees have in large part grown out of the deer's reach. There are very few mature beech trees left as well so the mast crop is nearly non existant. Near home I hunt a couple abandoned farms, and I wish the conditions were the same up at camp. We are formulating a plan to target a few areas such as intersections of skidder trails were the canopy is not quite so thick to do some selective tree harvesting, and create some small openings in the canopy. We will over the next few years create a number of these small spots to plant food plots. I have found a non invasive hardy honeysuckle(coral honeysuckle) that will grow there, and I am going to plant 50 to 100 plants along one wide area of a skidder trail. I am also going to target a few stands of young beeches and clear all of the other trees from the area to help the nut trees get a head start.
11-20-2004, 09:15 PM
#9
Typical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Caledonia, NY
Posts: 773
RE: Second Growth forest in Northern Dacks
*edit* did not read your last response...... same idea.
Here's an option..
I hunted in a hunt club in VA, similar situation. The land was leased long term from Georgia Pacific, but the area was actively logged, burned etc each year in different places. This is on 4,000 acres though. In that much area we were able to find open spots to plant plots.
The forests were 70% pine interspersed with hardwoods, and only 30% hardwoods. There were no farm food sources, as the only crop grown in the vicinity was cotton. So natural forage was the ticket. It got dry there...really dry. The first year's plots failed from lack of rain.
We had one particular trail ( It could be considered a dirt road since heavy machinery could navigate it easily) that was completely on the property, and ran parallel to a power line with about 200yds of woods in between over a span of a couple miles. The deer were commmonly found here.
Of course the road was pitched to keep it dry and allow for run off for the machinery. So the edges were thick. I assembled a crew and we planted along both sides of the road for the whole distance. Keep in mind it was only 3-5 ft on each side, and we had to brush hog some areas, but it turned out wonderfully, and the project was a MAJOR success. Members began to stop driving that road, and instead we set it up for stands.
Check your machinery paths you mentioned, and I am sure you will find suitable area to plant along them pending enough light, and your wishing to amend the soil.
I know another hunter who has a 10 ft wide 4 wheeler only path, and he planted it all with clover, some brassicas, and what not. The path snakes through the middle of the woods, and it became a major attractant and helped the quality of the deer herd. He had enough light, and amended the soil, and now is reaping in the benefits of having many more deer stay on his property than before. He is on only 50 acres of woods.
Here's an option..
I hunted in a hunt club in VA, similar situation. The land was leased long term from Georgia Pacific, but the area was actively logged, burned etc each year in different places. This is on 4,000 acres though. In that much area we were able to find open spots to plant plots.
The forests were 70% pine interspersed with hardwoods, and only 30% hardwoods. There were no farm food sources, as the only crop grown in the vicinity was cotton. So natural forage was the ticket. It got dry there...really dry. The first year's plots failed from lack of rain.
We had one particular trail ( It could be considered a dirt road since heavy machinery could navigate it easily) that was completely on the property, and ran parallel to a power line with about 200yds of woods in between over a span of a couple miles. The deer were commmonly found here.
Of course the road was pitched to keep it dry and allow for run off for the machinery. So the edges were thick. I assembled a crew and we planted along both sides of the road for the whole distance. Keep in mind it was only 3-5 ft on each side, and we had to brush hog some areas, but it turned out wonderfully, and the project was a MAJOR success. Members began to stop driving that road, and instead we set it up for stands.
Check your machinery paths you mentioned, and I am sure you will find suitable area to plant along them pending enough light, and your wishing to amend the soil.
I know another hunter who has a 10 ft wide 4 wheeler only path, and he planted it all with clover, some brassicas, and what not. The path snakes through the middle of the woods, and it became a major attractant and helped the quality of the deer herd. He had enough light, and amended the soil, and now is reaping in the benefits of having many more deer stay on his property than before. He is on only 50 acres of woods.
11-24-2004, 09:13 PM
#10
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: cazenovia, NY USA
Posts: 2,973
RE: Second Growth forest in Northern Dacks
Sagittarius62
Its hard to plant to supplement regrowth - its usually not a viable option unless thinning/cutting has occurred. Especially when the deer population is normal to high - like most ares.
Phade has a couple good suggestions on planting your logging roads.
I know where you are coming from - though our area in NY is about 1200ft - and rolling terrain with Aspen as the dominant soft, hardwood compared to your birch. - but again - I'd caution about introducing invasive species of plants. They may fit the bill perfectly - but usually - the invasive species will not take or will overcrowd (eg- Kudzu, locust, orange osage, etc ).
Below is a couple pictures of a 40 year old "thicket" from the same treestand - taken this week. The dominant species right now is Aspen (big trees) and alder (heavy low cover) - depending on the soil properties.
Ash and Maple are about 15 ft tall, and 2-4" diameter right now - and very present in the undergrowth - especially in the Aspen areas - the alder tends to limit new growth of other tree types.
I assume your canopy is thicker - and not allowing this amount of undergrowth? Maybe your most mature trees are older? Let me know how it compares - A 20-30 year old regrowth should still offer some low growth. Also - its hard to tell - but the Deer actually can have a HUGE impact on undergrowth - and I'd sugest a 20 ft x 20 ft exclusion fence in an area or two - that you monitor over a couple years to see what WOULD come - if the deer allowed it. This type of information may help you decide what to do from a management standpoint. Before our foodplot program (and -to be fair - a couple ice storms)- this area was probably less than 1/2 as thick - I wish I took some pictures to compare.
I know I rambled a bit - but my point is that adding a food type - may not (probably won't) solve the problem.
Its hard to plant to supplement regrowth - its usually not a viable option unless thinning/cutting has occurred. Especially when the deer population is normal to high - like most ares.
Phade has a couple good suggestions on planting your logging roads.
I know where you are coming from - though our area in NY is about 1200ft - and rolling terrain with Aspen as the dominant soft, hardwood compared to your birch. - but again - I'd caution about introducing invasive species of plants. They may fit the bill perfectly - but usually - the invasive species will not take or will overcrowd (eg- Kudzu, locust, orange osage, etc ).
Below is a couple pictures of a 40 year old "thicket" from the same treestand - taken this week. The dominant species right now is Aspen (big trees) and alder (heavy low cover) - depending on the soil properties.
Ash and Maple are about 15 ft tall, and 2-4" diameter right now - and very present in the undergrowth - especially in the Aspen areas - the alder tends to limit new growth of other tree types.
I assume your canopy is thicker - and not allowing this amount of undergrowth? Maybe your most mature trees are older? Let me know how it compares - A 20-30 year old regrowth should still offer some low growth. Also - its hard to tell - but the Deer actually can have a HUGE impact on undergrowth - and I'd sugest a 20 ft x 20 ft exclusion fence in an area or two - that you monitor over a couple years to see what WOULD come - if the deer allowed it. This type of information may help you decide what to do from a management standpoint. Before our foodplot program (and -to be fair - a couple ice storms)- this area was probably less than 1/2 as thick - I wish I took some pictures to compare.
I know I rambled a bit - but my point is that adding a food type - may not (probably won't) solve the problem.