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RE: Sawtooth Oaks
 

http://greenwoodnursery.com/page.cfm/301

or do a Google on: sawtooth oaks online

RE: Sawtooth Oaks
 

I don't know what size sapling you are looking for but this past fall I picked up a couple hundred sawtooth oak acorns, soaked them in water until they sprouted and planed throughout my hunting grounds..I know of at least a few that made it even through the severve drought we had here in PA this past summer. I guess I will find out this spring how many actually made it through this frigid winter. Some more recent developments planted saw tooth oaks as street trees because of the rapid initial growth. If I run into an abudance again this fall I could probably send you as many as you want. It will be extra work and fewer will survive initially but heck all it will cost is postage.

RE: Sawtooth Oaks
 

Sawtooths are a NON-NATIVE, fast growing oak, import, from Asia.

Do you really want to plant them????

Good ol white and bur oaks are slow growing, but are at least natural to North America. And prefered by deer and turkeys cause they are the sweetest of the oak acorns.

RE: Sawtooth Oaks
 

I have years of experience and a BS in Wildlife management, you will have to give me stronger arguments against an oak that will produce an enormous quantity of acorns after only 15 years of growth. Yes there are a few species that produce more favorable acorns but none that compare to quickness and quantity of the saw tooth. Today's society wants instant gratification and the saw tooth oak is the way to go. Whether they are native or introduced? What is one negative aspect of a saw tooth oak?

RE: Sawtooth Oaks
 

Here's a bunch of places, try different catalogs.

http://forestry.about.com/cs/catalogs/index.htm

RE: Sawtooth Oaks
 

SAK, <BLOCKQUOTE id=quote<font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote> What is one negative aspect of a saw tooth oak?<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote>

You already mentioned it .... <BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>an oak that will produce an enormous quantity of acorns after only 15 years of growth. Yes there are a few species that produce more favorable acorns but none that compare to quickness and quantity of the saw tooth. <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote>

Basically the Asian Sawtooth has the unatural ability to reproduce faster than any native North American oak. Think of the saw tooth like european grass carp, european starlings, zebra mussles, purple loose strife, or even West Nile Virus. Sawtooths out compete native oaks.
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>I have years of experience and a BS in Wildlife management <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote>
Perhaps if your degree was in forestry you would know better.
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote> Today's society wants instant gratification and the saw tooth oak is the way to go. <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote>
Yeah, but that's not one of todays society's better qualities. Common sense and past experiences should be a guide, society should know better. Just because the negative effects are very, very, very slow, does not mean our generation should ignore the consequences.

JMHO <img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle>

RE: Sawtooth Oaks
 

I tend to agree with 1sagitarius on his point. While there may be nothing wrong with sawtooth, I' d consider the land use 50 years down the road before planting alot of them.

Today on our property, we deal with Morrow' s Honeysuckle - that was planted in the 1950' s as " Natural Fencing" that never really worked, but is all but inedible, and reproduces very well, I might add. Others have to deal with Multiflora Rose, or other introduced Pines or plants.

Just consider your options, and longterm plans before planting.

RE: Sawtooth Oaks
 

1sagittarius,

Comparing west niles virus to saw tooth oaks is comparing apples to oranges. As far as out competing native oaks, my guess is guys are planting them because of the lack of native oaks becuase of the abundance of deer. Exotics can have many negative impacts on the environment but to suggest that the Penn woods will be dominated by saw tooth oak trees in 30 years in absurd. I sign on to enjoy an educated conversation not personal attacks on the subject of my BS. Farm hunter you bring up some very relevant examples and those species should be kept in mind. The nature of these exotics are low growing thick, nasty plants. They are very hard to control. It would be much easier to control an evasion of saw tooth than it was for these species.

RE: Sawtooth Oaks
 

SAK, The point with West Nile Virus is that it is not native to North America and was brought here by man, just like saw tooth oaks. You knew that.

As far as " the Penn woods will be dominated by saw tooth oak trees in 30 years in absurd."

No one mentioned that but you, and yes that IS absurd, it would take much longer than that.

The point is that someone would have to put forth effort to control sawtooth oaks because they are not native oaks. Just like Morrow' s Honeysuckle, Multiflora Rose, purple loose strife, zebra mussels, ECT, they would have to be controlled because they out compete native plant species.

The best solution is not to plant non-native species in the first place. Native species will feed the deer just fine.

One does not need a degree in forestry to understand the morel concept.

RE: Sawtooth Oaks
 

1sagittarius; I have to agree with SAK on this one. The Sawtooth oak is a lower (50-60 ' ) tree which populates the nitch between shrubs and the climax forest. White oks grows taller (90' ). They should form the climax forest and replace the Sawtooth Oaks as the forest matured.

You' re correct that planting foreign species of plants has changed our environment. Common grass and dandelions are just 2 examples of introduced species. Unfortunately; we have lost so many of our original food trees that something needs to be planted to fill the nitch. American Chestnuts were a major food source lost this century. Chinese Chestnuts could fill some of the need as they' re generally resistant to blight. We live in a world so changed from the original. Logging cleared the best trees which just happened to be oaks, walnuts, hickories, cherry and chestnut. Just the trees that wildlife needed the most. The trees that grew back tended to be early successional trees like birch and poplar. The forests which we think of as old today are not comparable to those that we lost.

Wildlife has adapted by eating farm crops to make up the shortage. Deer (at least in my area) have expanded to areas that they never existed in before land clearing. Imported wildlife (Pheasants, hares etc.) were introduced. Imported fish (Rainbow trout, salmon, brown trout, carp) were released and are now some of our most prized trophies.

We' re planting clovers, alfalfa, trefoil. In fact, most of the crops we' re recommending on this forum are imports. It' s wise to know the effect of planting/introducing/changing anything in our " natural" environment but the positives of providing food sources have to be weighed against future problems. Some species (eg. Norway Maple) I won' t plant, but so many others are only filling holes left by the loss of our natives.

Dan O.

I found this quote in an article about the effect of the Chestnut blight on the Eastern US forest canopy:

" Plant pathogens can equally overwhelm an entire ecosystem. The chestnut blight fungus arrived in New York City in the late 19th century on nursery stock from Asia and in less than fifty years had spread over 225 million acres of the eastern U.S., destroying virtually every chestnut tree. Because chestnut had comprised a quarter or more of the canopy of tall trees in many forests, the effects on the entire ecosystem were staggering, although not all were obvious. For example, several insect species that live only on the chestnut are now extinct or endangered. A less predictable result is an increase in the oak wilt disease in many native oak species, since the trees that replaced many of the chestnuts were red oaks, which are particularly susceptible to the blight."

Dan O.

RE: Sawtooth Oaks
 

Further info from US government sources:

Sawtooth oaks planted on reasonably productive sites using the guidelines described here will produce prolific crops of acorns in 7 to 10 years. Acorn production is fairly consistent year to year. However, minimal crops can be expected following late spring or early fall frosts. Yields from mature trees in good years range from 1,000 to 1,300 pounds of acorns per tree.

Sawtooth Oak, native to Japan, China, and Korea, is a species introduced because of its rapid establishment and heavy fruit production at an early age, serving as a source of food in late summer and throughout autumn for wildlife. Large birds (crows, bluejays, turkeys), squirrels, deer, racoons, opossums, and other mammals love the large, abundant crops of acorns, which are borne heavily every other year, if not every year. This Oak is easy to identify by its pyramidal shape in youth, striated young bark, retained winter foliage, acorns with frilled caps, and finely serrated leaves (from which it gets its common name). It is planted throughout most of Ohio, and may reach 60 feet tall by 60 feet wide at maturity, when found in the open. As a member of the Red Oak group and the Beech Family, it is related to the Beeches, Chestnuts, and other Oaks.

Dan O.

RE: Sawtooth Oaks
 

Dan O, Thanks for the support. You present some great facts.
1sagittarius, If you ASSUME that the saw tooth will be as detrimental to the environment as some of the less desirable exotics such as multiflora rose and the zebra mussel than you are correct. The problem is that you are asumming. Can you site any studies that support that the saw tooth will be an detrimental exotic? On the other hand what if it fills a niche that is currently missing in many of our forests as sited by Dan O? Once again I am only in this to talk to others about something I love and to learn from others, not cheap and classless shots.

RE: Sawtooth Oaks
 

SAK, while DanO' s info is interesting, it says nothing to indicate that the sawtooths would not dominate over native oaks.

You ASSUME the sawtooth is will not be detrimental to the environment, yet like it, because it produces more seed than native oaks??

At tree speed, a 200 year test observation may not be enough time to determine competition effects between sawtooths and native oaks. Yet what we know now is that sawtooths produce the most nuts/seeds..... that should be enough for a logical conclusion.

RE: Sawtooth Oaks
 

The Sawtooth Oak was first introduced to the U.S. in 1862 and has proven to be a very beneficial tree for wildlife. I have read numerous articles about them and have yet to see a negative article for any reason. A lot of them written by professors at many of the universities that specilize in forestry. It doesn' t compete well with other timber types so the taking over of our forest isn' t a concern. I' ve seen a number of them growing and havn' t witnessed advancing reproduction.

RE: Sawtooth Oaks
 

Ok, so what if there are no native oaks in the area? It sounds as though this would be a way to introduce a mast crop in less than 10 years. That would be a big plus for wildlife, wouldn' t it!

. . . Rob

RE: Sawtooth Oaks
 

Native Oaks (Red) are more cold tolerant so that won' t work in the northern areas but it would elsewhere.

Dan O.

RE: Sawtooth Oaks
 

what is the zone hardiness for the sawtooth oak?

RE: Sawtooth Oaks
 

Zone 5 - 9 is listed for the Sawtooth Oak. Look above at the link I had above and check it for further information.

RE: Sawtooth Oaks
 

I' ve seen zone 5-9 and 6-9 listed for Sawtooths while Northern Red Oaks are 4-8. They appear to be a little less cold resistant than White Oaks. I' d love to get some acorns but when I tried last year from a source in NY it was going to cost $50+ dollars for 2 lb of acorns.

Dan O.

RE: Sawtooth Oaks
 

Sawtooth Oaks are recommended for CRP planting by government agencies as per the link below:

http://www.ms.nrcs.usda.gov/crp.pdf

Dan O.