Depleted PA deer populations
 

Everyone I know here in PA is grumbling about the same thing. There aren't near as many deer as their used to be. I believe the only way to satisfy both trophy hunters and meat hunters is the removal of the 2 week antlerless season and go back to the 3 day antlerless season. More button bucks would survive and the antler restrictions would ensure that they would reach maturity before being killed. More big bucks. Less time to kill does, so more does. Therefore, we see more deer. Some friends and I have each e-mailed the PA Game Commission about this and the subject is being reviewed. Hopefully they will pass it at a board meeting. Fellow PA hunters please e-mail this address and voice your concerns on the subject of depleted deer and let them know that you would support a 3 day doe season.

[email protected]

RE: Depleted PA deer populations
 

Never happen ,But it makes sense th hunters not politicians

RE: Depleted PA deer populations
 

1. they were supposed to reduce the deer population. Someplaces it just may have been over done
2. they can keep the 2 week season, just drop the numbers of doe tags handed out.
3. antler restrictions aren't about 'trophy' hunting. In most of the state a scrubby little 5 pt with a 6" spread would be a legal buck. Yea that's makin ya wait on a monster there.

RE: Depleted PA deer populations
 

Not everyone is grumbling. There will be people at the Jan meeting who will be real proponents of MORE herd reductions. Last Jan meeting several grouse hunting groups gave testimony that more is needed until the PGC reaches its goal of 12dpsm (and pa on the pgc websites most recent annual report shows we are at 25dpsm ave).

The PaNWTF testified the PGC should stay the course on herd reductions as did the United Bowhunters of PA and PFSC. Many DCNR employees also testified as the merits of more herd reductions and there were several timber company owners there urging even more stringent reductions for pa. And of course Audubon and Peter Pinchots herd reductions advocates were there at the microphone too.

Sooooooo.... if you do attend, you better take along a couple buds. You will be up against quite a few sportsmans groups and nonhunters groups who love herd reductions which have only just begin in pa. Up till 2004 the PGC says "the herd has only been stabilized and is at a record high of 1.6 million". You may not agree with that, as most pa hunters know that what they experienced in the woods is not an all time high. And our declining harvests for 3 years shows their eyes are pretty well adjusted. :D

Pa leaders want the herd reduced much more than what you see today. If you did not like this year, you're really not going to like next. Recruitment of fawns will be down as a result of the smaller herd, and it will take less hunters next year to harvest enough deer to reduce the OW herd again for 2006(its smaller, thus less needed to hit the goal).

You are supposed to love seeing less deer, because flowers and trillium and neotropical birds are going to rebound and prosper. Sure buck harvests in pa have dropped from 203,000 pre-Alt to 165,000 then dooooown to 142,000 last year and a dismal 120somethingK this year but hey, a couple of guys took home deer that weighed 4 more pounds due to herd reductions!! So that should more than make up for 80,000 more hunters going home without bucks...... Right?



Herd reductions for Pa.... its the wave of the future. Less for everyone. ;)

RE: Depleted PA deer populations
 

I have permission on some private land in Wayne County (NE PA) and there are still too many deer. I don't see 150 does on opening day like I used to, but there are still too many. The forest is munched beyond recognition and it will take years to recover. I would have supported doe only seasons for a few years. Sorry that other parts of the state have the reverse problem..I guess this is why they have Deer management Zones, vs Statewide regulations.

RE: Depleted PA deer populations
 

I feel like I'm drowning in a river of tears here in PA.

I guess the floodwater has changed my opinion. I saw deer before Herd Reduction, I see plenty of deer now. For anyone having problems seeing deer, come on down to good ole' Fayette County, we're overrun with the stinking things.

I guess I'm just tired of hearing this whining, and I agree that some areas are probably overshot.

As for harvest numbers on the slide, take a look at the license sales - they're on the slide, too. Let's face it, PA hunters are getting OLD - going blind, deaf, and have increasingly limited physical capabilities. Of course their success rates are going to decline, it's common sense.

At any rate, I hope we keep and/or increase the Antler Restrictions, but I guess the herd reduction could go or stay, I am indifferent. I was pro-H.R., so all this crying has swayed my opinion (probably just an appeasement offering).

RE: Depleted PA deer populations
 

So basically you are of the opinion that as long as deer are plentifull in your area, you do not care about your fellow sportsman, who are not experiencing the same overpopulation.

And YOU term anyone who shows a concern and wants hunters to have input to the Game Commissions meetings, and input to 'thier' hunting.......as a whiner. Hmmmmm. Speaks volumes about your character.

As for being in an area of overpopulation, you have all the tools you could ask for to address the problem. Liberal doe tags, DMAP, Red tag, crop damage are all ways to eliminate that problem. But what program is there to address an underpopulation? Oh, thats right there is only the "cross your fingers and wait" program. In a few years your population might rebound.

Those who have not experienced the reductions in thier back yard are very flippant about the concerns of anyone else. But when it eventually comes to their area, they sober up in a hurry. Its only a matter of time. The reductions have just started in pa, and they will get to your area eventually......... so you have the luxury of being rather snotty now and calling people whiners, but remember "ye reap what ye sow". ;)

One thing that has is not based on opinion in pa. Dropping buck harvests of a huge scale.

203,000 2001
165,000 2002
142,000 2003
1XX,000 2004


If we drop this season to the 130,000 neighborhood then that is a 35% reduction in the harvest under the current regs. And you are seriously attempting to attribute that drop to "Let's face it, PA hunters are getting OLD - going blind, deaf, and have increasingly limited physical capabilities. Of course their success rates are going to decline, it's common sense.


Yeeeeeeeaaah, Pa's harvest drop has nothing to do with herd reductions. Its just that older hunters are now forgetfull, and young hunters can't hunt as well?

Puhhhhlleeease! :D

RE: Depleted PA deer populations
 

I might have to buy another climing stick for next season and move my stand up another 10 feet. Tear flood waters are rising. I just ordered a new snorkel on ebay.

Chickory - they are whining - whining because they're seeing 4 deer instead of 7, seeing 10 instead of 15, seeing 50 instead of 75. What you call "voicing opinions," I call "whining."

I am simply making that argument that those problems, paired with the woods having a few less deer in them, makes for a tougher (and less successful) hunt. Read the numbers, look at the average ages. PA hunters are entering their golden years, it's no secret.

Besides, I said I changed my mind (mostly due to the whining) and now support a rollback of Herd Reductions. I feel that certain tracts of land have achieved adequate herd levels to achieve adequate regrowth of native plant species.

Deer aren't gonna become extinct. They aren't endangerd species. You won't have to go to a zoo to look at one.

RE: Depleted PA deer populations
 

While the buck harvest is dropping,
aren't these lucky 50,000 yearling bucks being compensated by the additional doe harvest
meaning that the total PA harvest is about the same.
Obviously increasing the doe harvest will have a multipier effect,
and this is what PA needs.
Sorry about those parts of the State that are hurting.
and by all means complain. Hopefully the system is flexible enough to change things based on the Deer Management Units.
If you want to see a real disaster, check with your friends in upstate NY, many of whom haven't even seen a deer this season.
By the Way, Gary Alt is leaving his position next week.
In my opinion, he is the best thing to happen to the State of PA in my lifetime.
Hopefully his replacement will be as scientific, flexible and energetic as Alt was.

RE: Depleted PA deer populations
 

sorry but i aint gonna do that, i think the deer population is right where it should be, i didnt see many bucks, but i dont hunt the antlers, im a meat hunter.

RE: Depleted PA deer populations
 

:(:( Boo Hoo
80,000 hunters didn't shoot their spike this year. What a shame. Shoot a doe they taste the same. Don't you always say, "You can't eat the horns." It's time for the "BUCK" hunters to realize that it's not about them shooting a buck or seeing 30 deer a day. It's about the wildlife and the forest that supports them. And sure there is money and special interest groupd involved, but the bottom line is the health of the herd not the spike in some hunters garage.

RE: Depleted PA deer populations
 

You are an idiot. I live in Connellsville. That IS in Fayette County. I know in Area 2C there aren't many deer at all, mainly because the large mountainous woods don't have much food for them. But 2A, the side of Fayette that I live on doesnt have near the amount of deer that the area could support. Its all farmland here and there is plenty to eat. Where exactly do you live in Fayette because I'd like to see this. Overrun with deer? Unless you live at the southern tip near WV I find this highly unlikely.

RE: Depleted PA deer populations
 

But Jhalf, some folks will ALWAYS claim they are loaded with everything. Every camp has one guy who claims wild things......its just the radical fringe.

Stick with the middle group of mainstream hunters who are much more dependable at reporting what is going on. The harvest stats back up the fact that our herd has been reduced and we have dropped from 203,000 buck harvested, efore Alt, own to 165,000 and further down to 142,000 and doooooown to propbably less than 12X,000 for 2004.

And 'mainstream' hunters are reporting they do NOT like it. They are rejecting Pa's version of so called scientific managment in droves. People are glad to see Gary Alt gone.

RE: Depleted PA deer populations
 

I'm not happy that Alt is gone and I hope the next guy makes the nessecary changes and continues with the program. Yes, less tags need to be handed out in certain areas and smaller WMU's would help the cause. I don't care if the buck harvest drops to 0. I enjoy hunting for what it is and don't need a buck to make my year successful. If you need a 4 point buck to be an accomplished hunter, then its time to hang up your weapon.

RE: Depleted PA deer populations
 

I agree with you on that. I pass up several bucks every year. I'm just saying that we don't need a very small deer population to grow big bucks. Plus just because I like to see deer when I go hunting doesnt mean that I want to shoot them all. Its just nice to see some activity from your stand rather than pass the entire day daydreaming.

RE: Depleted PA deer populations
 

About 13 years ago I lived in Uniontown,Smock,California and Daisytown.
The place was loaded with deer. I also remember the depressed nature of these area's and alot of property being bought and posted. Is the hunting opportunities in these area's closing due to this? I also remember that in Fox Chapel where my former inlaws lived they had a bad deer problem and were even considering hiring pro's to come in to cull the herd.I can't believe ALL of the good hunting is gone in these area's.[:o]

RE: Depleted PA deer populations
 

nobody said ALL the good hunting is gone, but in 13 years you would be surprised how low the population has dropped. Harvests have dropped signifigantly as the herd has shrunk. Less deer = less deer.

In the county I hunt on a private farm which butts against SGL, they normally take about 10-12 bucks during the first week. This year they took one AR legal buck.

We used to hunt in a camp in 4d, this year out of the many camps along our state forest road 3/4ths are closed in deer season. No longer worth hunting a full week to harvest the last doe on that hill side. No one in about 12 camps this year hung a buck.

Now I know a lot of places that had great hunting 13 years ago, but today are a mere shadow of thier former selves.

Heck, even 3 years ago. But times have changed in pa and initial reports from various sources show we have cut the herd signifigantly. Our harvest of bucks has dropped by 35% in just 3 years. (we were at 203k and now we are at ??? 110k??? for 2004)

The magic is gone in Pa, now the hunting is just sort of like a job to maintain the wishes of ecoweenies and wannabes.

Nothing like 13 years ago.

RE: Depleted PA deer populations
 

I'am glad Gary Alt is retiring he was the worse thing for Pa. hunters. Does make button bucks - button bucks make horns - I hunt for horns.

RE: Depleted PA deer populations
 

I live in Alabama, and have read about Mr. Alt and what he has done and I wish we could do the same here. Most of the negative comments seem to be based on opinions "and we know what everybody says about opinions". His program is based upon solid game management princple. Game Management is not about what you see when you go hunting, its about promoting healthy deer numbers. Seems some of you may need to do less complaining and pick up a book and read about the issues.

RE: Depleted PA deer populations
 

hehehe....too funny! Alabama man says its just opinions.....

Uninformed at best.

Pa has watched their buck harvests drop from 203,000 when Dr. Alt took over down to 165,000, then down to 143,000 then down to this years dismal 12X,000 (and I'm being gracious).

Now whether you like or don't like it, the one thing that the harvest is not IS AN OPINION. :D The PGC may put some spin on thier deer program but thier harvest numbers are as good as anyones. And that means dropping buck harvests are a fact in pa.

The only subjective part whether anyone is whether bucks are any bigger, than before. Now that is subjective, but at least one Game Commissioner has gone on record as saying we are taking the same bucks we always did for the last ten years. You might not believe one hunter, but when commissioners go on the record then you might want to listen.

Oh wait, thats right all you are hearing in Alabama are opinions that you read in D&D H :D

Go to pa and hunt the stats don't lie. Less deer really equals less deer.

And hunters do not like it. Oops! another opinion.

RE: Depleted PA deer populations
 

need to base SEASONS ON WMUs!!!!!!!! and make them a bit smaller......manage the herd......take time...and thinking...but a good biologist and his team could handle it....and make this a great deer hunting state.....right now some places are so out of whack its not funny....some places its rare to see a deer now....kinda funny....the places deer are rare now are the places where youd see 20 in a herd and call it normal.....they need better management....they were in the right direction...but it all hit the fan....it kinda went over board with HR in some areas.....so slack off on the tags handed out next year in them WMUs...maybe shorted seasons on does in those WMUs.....but it wont happen....some polotician will take the seat and flush deer hunting in PA down the toilet the rest of the way.....

RE: Depleted PA deer populations
 

Buck harvest is dropping OH NO! Buck harvest is dropping OH ON!
Shoot a freakin doe and get off your buck kick.

The overall harvest has remained close to what it was before AR. Yes, less bucks are being harvested but the age and size of these are bigger than before. If you weren't so narrow minded you could see that, even by going to the local butcher.
Before AR only 20% of the buck harvested were 2.5 yr old. In 2002 it was 32% and 2003 it was 44%
80% of 1.5 yr old were harvested before AR and now its down to 50%.
Your right stats don't lie.

Chick if you still want to shoot your spike every year so you can be a REAL hunter, go ahead, I won't tell.

RE: Depleted PA deer populations
 

Deer902, i don't think he said anything about AR's being ****ty. The subject at hand here is the many doe tags and 2 week rifle season to kill them. I'm sure chickory would love to shoot a doe if he could just see one.

I myself love the antler restrictions, and like you said I've made a trip to the local butchers. Here almost 50% of antlerless deer were button bucks. Now say what you want but I think thats freakin ridiculous. Either people need to open their eyes and check for buttons before they go on a firing rampage or we need shorter antlerless seasons so less are killed. I vote option #2.

*EDIT* And deer herd reducing is not an excuse that they should be able to use because this land held that many deer for well over a century, and its surely capable of doing it now. The only reason the PGC is whining that they need herd reduction is because they're being pressured by insurance companies.

RE: Depleted PA deer populations
 

Deer902 - stats don't lie but they may be slightly misleading. Instead of percentages, what are the actual numbers of 2 1/2 plus taken in those years? Going from 20% to 44% suggests a doubling in the take - actual numbers will show if this is true.

Steve

RE: Depleted PA deer populations
 

In 2002 - 52,600 2.5 yr old buck were taken and in 2003 - 62,000 2.5 yr old. Not too bad in my book.

RE: Depleted PA deer populations
 

I think people are shooting to many button bucks because that's the only deer they are seeing, they aren't looking carefully, don't care or can't see. But it isn't hard to tell a BB from a doe if it's within 50 yards. You have a scope, binocs or let it get within bow range and look at its head. The 2 week season was so people could look before they shot. The people in the western counties with plenty of deer have no excuse for shooting button bucks. You can find a doe in two weeks. I drive through Washington and Alleghany county 4 days a week for work and dodge deer the whole way, even now after season is over.

RE: Depleted PA deer populations
 

Well he is unemployed here effective 1/1/05. You can have him but be careful what you wish for.

RE: Depleted PA deer populations
 

During the time Dr. Alt was in control of deer management strategy, he was able to take the buck harvest from 203,000 bucks the year in 2000, down to 165,000, then down to 142,000 an then down to this years dismal performance of an estimate by a PGC commissioner of 100-110,000 !!


Now to take 93,000 buck hunters and send them home without a buck since Alt took over, in order to make 9,300 more 2.5 year olds is not worth it to a boatload of sportsmen who are now writing in droves to PA officials and saying it is indeed not worth having a handfull of hunters take a deer that may have been a six point and now is a 7 or 8 while sending 93,000 hunters home with no bucks.....

Pa lost 41,000 hunters last year as a result of poor performance on the deer harvest and they will again this year if no changes are made.

Even Dr. Alt said after he retired, that he was "not effective" at delivering what he was appointed to do. If you can't believe the words right from him, then who would you believe?

RE: Depleted PA deer populations
 

What was the TOTAL harvest in 1999, including bucks and does? What is the total harvest now? As long as that number is the same........wouldn't hunters still have the same opportunity to put meat in the freezer? I don't have issues seeing deer in PA when I hunt, but I hunt private land. I do think that HR is out of control a bit in certain areas in PA, however I dont' have any problems with AR. People get the two confused too easily, it is possible for one to be good without the other IMHO. I have seen more and bigger bucks since AR, so I love it. I wouldn't mind seeing less does killed though.

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What is the deal with 79 through Greene county? I have never seen so many deer there. They aren't running low over there. Between the WV line and little Washington, I counted 30 dead deer one day in 30 miles. During the rut, there is at least one per mile on the side of the interstate in that stretch.

RE: Depleted PA deer populations
 

WV harvest went down the last couple of years too. Here they blamed a bad acorn crop in 2002 and 2003, fantastic this year. Could that be some of the cause in PA too?

RE: Depleted PA deer populations
 

Oh no what will we do. And you talk about the supporters being trophy hunters. I thought a doe is just as good as a buck. You can't eat the horns, right.
How did we only save 9,300 1.5 yr old buck? We saved 50% of the 1.5 yr olds.

RE: Depleted PA deer populations
 

Good point clearanceman. I was going to a QDM meeting in Fairmont WV last march maybe and from washington PA to WV line near Mt Morris I saw over 200 deer on I-79. If anyone in Washington or Greene county isn't seeing any deer they better go ask there neighbors if they can hunt on there property cause there is no shortage of deer in those counties. I go through washington county and Allegheny 4 nights a week and I can go about 6 different ways and see deer every way every day.

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I drove roundtrip from Binghamton NY to Wilkes Barre yesterday and did not see one roadkill carcass on I 81. Same trip in Jan past years had the road practically littered- one time more than 30 were counted. Either the hgwy dept is removing them as they fall, the deer learned to use the crosswalks or there are a LOT less deer.

Steve

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'
Wonder if the new 3 point on one side buck rule is responsible for the lowered buck kills? There aren't nearly as many legal bucks left in PA now. But it is because the law changed, maybe the population of bucks didn't change so much.

RE: Depleted PA deer populations
 

I think they are picking them up more. At least on 79 I have seen the truck more that picks them up. Man, what a crap job that would be, picking up dead deer on the side of the road....

RE: Depleted PA deer populations
 

All, Own a farm in Westmoreland County... Have been QDM hunting it since 1995..I had so many does that nothing would grow...I planted it they ate it...Some mornings I would look out the sliding glass door on our deck and a doe would be on it eating the plants... Are there any farmers out there?? I am one...Do the math..If I put 100 cattle in a 25 acre pasture you would all tell me I was an idiot..Now, put real cattle various critters and too many deer on one farm such as mine and I can't even grow plants on my porch.. Small underdeveloped bucks with poor food supply and he does not maintain a good body..

Now, I am a serious hunter...Love to hunt Ohio...HUGE BUCKS...Plenty of meat too...Scent control, clothes in tupperware, bow mostly...As I watch the herd here, this is what I have noticed... For years I never saw a real RUT...All I witnessed was yearlings trying to rut...They had weak bodies and were not developed... Not the same as mature rut bucks like in Ohio for example... I watched as small inferior bucks with bad racks passed on bad racks...Farm question again- If you have a poor quality horse or bull do you want to breed for better animals with the poorer quality animal or the stud?? We know that answer...

Back to the observations.. As these small poor quality bucks passed on these poor genetics I watched more strange animals emerging...Deformities were more numerous..Missing ears, additional things growing off them, etc...

Now, since Alt, things are changing... Far more mature bucks... 2.5 to 3.5 yr olds are there these days... But there are still those genetic questions we created a few years ago...additionally speaking let's do the math to address a few comments I saw earlier.. I think, I saw does make bucks and I hunt bucks... Correct.. but we are seeing the calm before the storm...

If we take 4 does and the drop a normal rate we see 4 go to 11-12, in farming areas and in mountinous regions 4 go to 8-9.

Farm first, using even numbers for this example 8 fawns will have a 50-50 break almost all the time...so we have 4 bucks and 4 does plus 4 older does for a total of 12 deer...
-if we shoot the old rate of bucks which was nearly 90%. We have 1 buck(2.5yr)
-if we shoot the same doe rate as the past we see 2 young does left and 3 older does for a total of 5 does
-young does produce 3 fawns and the older does will drop 6. which leaves us with 14 total deer - 9 fawns and 5 older does..
1- 2.5 yr old buck and 5 young bucks...90% kill ratio and we have 2-3 bucks
do this with each area....Does produce fast and bucks stay about the same...This is one herd...

Currently, we see the buck harvest dropping...No kidding huh? Well take a look at the flow of production...If those mature bucks are growing big enough to make the rules and overcoming genetic issues we created, we see that it takes about 3-4 yrs to get some growth.. And while we wait for the little ones to grow up we see the buck harvest go down...However, we are seeing more mature bucks...Now, for the hunter in me I can not resist this one for you older guys...Remember when you were 18yrs old and knew everything and dad knew nothing?? Won't admit it will ya...Well, dad knew not to do certain things and he got that from what we call experience... We on the other hand ran in blindly and got the I told ya so...Put that in deer...As we see these bucks get older they get smarter...with that comes scent control and really hunting...I passed 11 bucks this year...and that is with guys slip hunting my place when if they would ask I would let them if they stuck to the rules...

I went to a recent deer meeting and all I heard was crying about how there were no deer etc...Amid the camo clad, huntin boot wearin crowd I noticed them smokin and smellin... I asked a few of the loader fellows about how the season went and in a round about way asked about scouting and sets and got told some amazing info...Stuff I had forgotten... like how it didn't matter about smoking or smell but that from the old stand they hunted for the last (dig this) 12 yrs, they just were not seeing deer from it...My woods have changed each year and I have had to move stands etc... I have a few that work but with the new growth I see the deer moving to different areas of my farm...

Additionally, I have an area I call the sanctuary... I never go in there...It's about 25 - 30 acres... I saw more bucks headed that direction after the first shot, that it wasn't even funny...First morning this year 22 deer in the morning and 9 were bucks and 4 were shooters for most folks..They are still in my sanctuary area.... I passed...

Addressing the depletion gig...I hunt all over and it amazes me when I see a PA hunter in a camp and all they do is talk about how great the hunting is whereever we are and how bad it is at home... But those guys are usually the ones who are trying to fix things... They are really hunting....

Mark my words...If this thing goes the wrong way I hear Wal-Mart or subdivison for my farm... I will cut it up asap and buy a farm in a state like Ohio or Ill...

They call it hunting cause it ain't killin... Old saying one of my old redneck buddies has and I love it....

RE: Depleted PA deer populations
 

I have family in PA and the say you lucky if you can get an 150lbs. buck

RE: Depleted PA deer populations
 

I can hold back no longer. I have been reading so much of how the buck harvest has been dropping. That was the whole point!!!!! If people can't see that they should be taking home the does instead of the small bucks then that is somewhat disheartening. Send Alt over here to WI, we are not that different than PA with herd numbers and hunters, but we know that game management includes taking does and passing up bucks. ( Remember we have earn a buck and many areas are QDM. Went up north for two days this year and didn't see one deer. So what! I took does and passed up about twenty different bucks in the area that I live. Seeing deer and harvesting isn't what hunting is about.;)

RE: Depleted PA deer populations
 

Not disagreeing with you mammasboy......but yes that is the whole point.

Less deer=less deer in pa.

We are 'similar' to Wis, in our size and number of hunters, but you do not keep up with us in antlerless harvests. We are harvesting more than two antlerless to one antlered in pa. You are not even harvesting 2 antlerless for every buck......;) Makes a big difference.

(pa = 142k buck 322k antlerless)
(wis = 192k buck but only 290k antlerless)

Hey back when we only took <300,000 doe we were taking 203,000 buck!

Not a hard concept. Pa hunters were pretty happy too when thier buck harvest was 190's and 200,000 :D

But this year Mammasboy, pa's buck harvest is estimated to be 110,000 down from pre-Alt of 203,000.

Now you do THAT (take 2+ doe for every buck and drop your buck harvest by 93,000) in Wis. for a bunch of years.... then you can come back and tell us how all your partners like it!!!;) Guess what? I bet a few hunters there would not like it either.....:)

And I loved your depiction of hunting. Believe it or not...not everyone thinks walking through the woods not seeing any deer in the woods is very thrilling. :D Yea, I know, surprising huh?