Muzzleloaders
 

Strut's post got me thinking about so many times I shoot deer with my muzzlelaoder and they leave no blood/sign. Only to find them and see that they were hit hard and pretty much right on.

How many guys have had this happen? Any theories why?

My dad is a great shot and he is 0 for 3 on muzzloader does this year. Nothing to track and body searches don't lead to anything either. We both know what we are doing in the woods and tracking but this no sign stuff with a muzzloader has been happening for years.

Any thoughts?

Greg

RE: Muzzleloaders
 

Every deer that I have shot with a ML left a good blood trail.
Are you geting a exit wound?
Where are they being hit?
What bullet ,load and range ?

RE: Muzzleloaders
 

What caliber you using ? and what amount of powder and type bullit ?? Most of the time the deer fall right down or dont go more then 30 yards, I shoot a 50 cal,with 100 gr of powder and 295 gr bullits

RE: Muzzleloaders
 

Gryan,

I know what you are talking about. I took two deer last year using PR bullets dead center. I recovered the deer but neither shot passed through and left little or no blood. The was from 20 yards with a Knight Disc Extreme .50 stainless thumbhole stock with 100 grains of triple 7.

This year I switched to 250 gr. Knight red hots and they were much better. Out of the three deer I took this year only one left a good blood trail because it was spraying each time it's heart beat. It was aged at 6 1/2 and ran 125yds with a money shot right in the heart. The other two were piled up within 50 yards with just a few drops of blood.

I shot three additional with my 30-06 and there is always a huge blood trail. All of my hits have been heart/lung shots I usually average between 5 to 10 deer per year between bow, gun, and ML and the ML has the poorest blood trails of all three. We practice QDM and are trying like hell to cut down our doe population. Between our neighboring parcel and ours (850 acres) we took 54 deer last year and just under 60 this year. The area will probably be earn a buck next year due to the size of the herd.

I don't know why this is, it doesn't make sense, but I know exactly what you are talking about. There were many threads on this last year in the muzzleloader forum. Specifically on non-pass through hits being more common than not.

Cybersniper

RE: Muzzleloaders
 

i have never used a muzzleloader but it don't seem to have many benefits except for those states that have a muzzleloading only season

RE: Muzzleloaders
 

I shoot 50 cal. with 265 grain sabots. 90 gr.of pyrodex pellets. I used to shoot a TC hawkin until last year. Now I shoot a black diamond inline. My dad still shoots the hawkins with 100 gr. of 3-f and 290 gr in 54 cal.

It is just weird. They are all hit in the heart lung shoulder area. (even those hit elsewhere don't bleed much) Sometimes, you can see they are hit by the way they run or whatever but there is very little if any blood. This year, I shot one through the base of the neck with the inline and she dropped in her tracks. There was no blood where she lay. And I let her lay for about fifteen minutes until the other deer left without being spooked. NOT A DROP OF BLOOD. I thought there would be a pool under her. I think most of our shots pass through but leave nothing. Slugs from the shotgun, buckshot, and arrows leave huge amounts of blood. The ML often nothing. Just strange.

Greg

RE: Muzzleloaders
 

My experiences with inlines is small entrance and small exit unless they meet heavy media like bone. IMO the problem lies in expecting a copper bullet that is pushed at 1500-1800fps that in all reality needs another 1000fps to create the kind of performance it is design for. I continue to use them b/c they print snowmen and haven't lost an animal when using them. In terms of game performance I have found heavier softer grain bullets pushed at ML velocities produce large wound channels and more blood on the dirt (not lots but more). The only downside is longer range ballistics and often a drop in inherit accuracy is resulted. This fall I took 2 deer with the 250 gr SST pushed by 100 gr loose T7. Doe was 171 yards (LRF) mid double lung she limped 30 yards maybe meager blood trail, once opened up lungs just split in two and what blood was not allowed out the holes I suspect - virtually no difference in entrance and exit. The second deer a large bodied buck at 75 yards (same load combo) heavy quarter, bullet entered the ribs taking out lungs before exiting in front of the opposite shoulder he never moved more than a couple of steps. In this case lungs again seperated and the exit hole was 1 1/2" diameter because it met some heavier media, I found the copper jacket in the opposite hide the core passed through. Performance was virtually the same as my previous load of 240 XTP. I bought into the concept of the plastic tip bullet expanding more under lower velocities creating more of a wound channel but IME and others I have talked with that isn't the case! It is still under the required velocity to force good expansion of the projectile. Here is why I say this same bullet and load combo was fired into another deer this year range was inside of 20 yards, face on shot, bullet not only expanded better it pentrated a long ways finding it tuck along the spine of the deer and noticed it shed a lot of mass in it's travels (around 60% was retained). I wish I could compare that with a 100 yard shot but I can't as I don't have any recovered bullets. It is just theory but at this point the only one I can come up...might be totally out to lunch who knows!

I will continue to use the SST b/c the performance what i am use to and I gained in accuracy and long range trajectory...however the search for the best of both worlds will continue as usual.

RE: Muzzleloaders
 

Well other than the obvious extra hunting time, I live in a shotgun only state. I find I get better range (150+ yds vs. 100 max yds shotgun) and better accuracy. Also there is just something about knowing you only get one shot so you better make it count. That and the smell of the smoke, ahhh there is nothing like it! It is also really neat to see all those sparks fly when you fire at close to the end of legal daylight. Anymore, I only use my shotgun when we are push hunting. If I am still / stand hunting I take my muzzleloader all through the season. The last 4 deer I have killed were all muzzleloader and I haven't even been out for muzzleloader only season yet.

As far as a blood trail, I use 100gr. pyrodex powder and 295 powerbelt hollow point bullets. About 1/2 of my shots pass through but I have only had a couple leave a good blood trail. With one I shot last year I could see blood spraying out as he ran through my scope. But for the most part, I get very little blood but it is trackable. These bullets retain about 60 percent of their original weight from the slugs I have been able to recover. They do mushroom out very nicely and do a ton of internal damage whether or not they pass through. One thing I have noticed though, I have never had to go more than 50 yards from point of impact to collect my deer. They just don't go very far. I have had to track quite a bit with a well hit shotgun (copper solid) slug though. From what I have read on these boards, most people who have complained about very small amounts of tracking blood never had to track the animal anyways as they never went over 50 yards. I guess I would rather see them drop close to where they were shot and not leave any blood, than have a lot of blood but have to track them all over the woods!

RE: Muzzleloaders
 

Davidmor,

You're correct, Even though there is usually little or no blood, the deer is usually piled up within 50 yards.

You also hit it on the head with an answer to treehunter. Another season of hunting, A hell of a lot more challenge, and you only get one chance to make it right.

My muzzleloader kicks less than my shotgun and is much better at long range shots.

RE: Muzzleloaders
 

I also shoot these dead center sabots since last year. Since I have only took 1 deer with them I will leave my conclusions blank. The reason for going to these was the accuracy. I was having big problems with the Knight sabots and was introduced to these at the range and was very impressed. The only beef i can think with them is that they are so very close to balistic tips and I will never let one of those tough my magazine again. Talk about no blood trails. I bought them on accident for both myself and my son and we are 4 for 4 with no blood at all. We did find all 4 deer but it was because of good shot placement and the deer didn't go far.

RE: Muzzleloaders
 

I have had this happen too, i figure its all in the bullet construction , they don't expand , in out smae size, but they are accurate. I tried many different types and loads until i got some good accuracy. now i just need expansion

RE: Muzzleloaders
 

I have noticed the same thing as well. I shoot a inline 50 cal. with 100gr 777. I have used only 3 kind of sabots. 220 gr. Dead Centers - one doe at 191 yards neck shot dropped dead no blood. Remington 265 gr. hollow piont. 2 bucks at both 75 yards, or less. Pile up with in 20 to 30 yards and lots of blood and big time damage. With these all I had to do do was listen and hear them wipe out in the bush. Give them 3 jumps (or 20 yards and you will find blood.) I have also used the 245 Hornby hollows for the range they are not bad, for fun. I think the best, which I will be look for soon is something like, a 230 gr hollow point to cover anything from 50-200 yards, with a good mushroom on inpact. If anyone knows of a good one let me know, I love to play with ML . Oh, by the way. Traditions E-bolt 209 is the best out of box gun I ever got.

RE: Muzzleloaders
 

I just started muzzleloading this year,but I do it because it is the most accurate weapon for my hunting area.I used it all regular season but never saw a deer.I use 150 grains of pyrodex and wonder why most guys only use 100 grains?According to ballistics at powerbelt,100 grains just doesn't seem to have hitting power at 200 yards.It hurts to shoot after a while but it seems very accurate at 100 yards.Next year I plan on doing alot of shooting with it to try different loads and bullets.I have an Omega and at 100 yards I can hit the 2 inch bull with 150 grains and a 245 grain powerbelt aerotip.

RE: Muzzleloaders
 

Here's a before and after pic of a 260 grain Speer JHP that I use in my Knight Woverine. I was using 90 grains of FFF Triple Seven. The buck was quartered away at 70 yards and ran about 60 yards after the shot. I recovered the slug from it's opposite shoulder. The only blood I saw was where it fell.

RE: Muzzleloaders
 

I would say your in the minority here as I have heard very few complain about the blood left by a NBT. I use the NBT for my deer and antelope needs in a CF's and can't say I have experienced a lack of blood or any problems what so ever. To me they are an excellent bullet choice for my situation and I like the bigger holes they will produce for a thin skinned animal such as a deer. Personal Experiences are valuable and use them myself so I trust your opinion, just have never seen it personally.

RE: Muzzleloaders
 

thanks for the pics , i will try them

RE: Muzzleloaders
 

mdrbowler,

The reason most guys use 100 grain is because of accuracy. At 150 grains my gun kicks a lot more and there is more "inconsistancy" with grouping.

If you have consistant accurate groups with 150 and don't mind the recoil then stick with it.

You also need to know that triple seven is what most of us use and It burns approx. 20% hotter than Pyrodex. 100 grains of tripe 7 is like a 120 grain load of pyrodex.

Check out this web site and look at the velocity comparison chart:

http://www.hodgdon.com/tripleseven/t7granular.php

Cybersniper

RE: Muzzleloaders
 

I use 250gr. Knight Red Hot/Barnes sabot, and all the deer I shot left just as much blood as my shotguns sabot slugs, and centerfire rifles and all the deer ran no more then 15/20yds.

RE: Muzzleloaders
 

Last night (Saturday) I shot a big doe at 10 yards with my White Mountain Carbine, 50 caliber, 320 grain maxi balls, and 80 grains of powder. the bullet hit her in the left shoulder (she was quartered to me) and it exited around the last rib on the opposite side. She ran about 50 yrds and the only thing where I shot her was some hair, no blood til the last 10 yrds or so on the run. This I think is common with MZ shot deer, I don't know why but they don't seem to leave much blood. However if you hit them in the shoulder they usually go down, and even if you don't break the shoulder but hit the lungs they don't go far and you should always be able to find them.