Wooddust

Chicory...


I'd like to at least have some civility in the debate. Here are some responces to your post...


Voluntery QDM is like a voluntery speed limit. QDM requires harvests that are designed for a given goal and set of circumstances. The simple fact is that the average hunter does not have the technical understanding or data to know what the harvest goals need to be for the population he or she hunts. The Dept of Conservation should know and we need to rely on their help to determine harvest requirements.

I have hunted low numbers having shot a deer in a first year deer season county when I was in 8th grade....so please dont try to inform me of low populations. I remember when seeing a track was cause for excitement. The fact is that in the areas in Missouri where we dont have a high population would be rare. And even id excellent habitat counties, we are seeing signs of stress on the habitat from deer numbers.

My point about those who are anti AR..who claim to be meat hunters....they are like John Kerry!! What is the point? I mean if you are ameat hunter, what do you care about AR's? Granted if you are in a low population area, that may be an issue. But on the other hand, a low population may be low because the habitat cannot support large numbers of deer...or, maybe the harvest of breeding age bucks has been far too high...

If the harvest is that high in your county, then the DNR needs to address that specific need. But the PA experience and the results on balancing habitat/numbers/age classes/sex ratios is pretty darn impressive.

You seem to equate AR/QDM and restrictions as all related to "rack hunters". That ignores an awful lot of science and progress in understanding deer management.

I will have to do some data searches to look at the data in PA. Your perspective is interesting but does not seem that they would continue that program and those tag totals unless they had good reason and statewide data to support that program.

Wooddust

Here is a different view of the PA season last year...http://www.allegheny-online.com/PGCnews001-04.html

sounds like people didnt stay in the timber cause of the weather.

BT

I can answer the meat hunter and carring about AR question.

Last year Fl was thinking of adopting the AR's and sent out a questioner.

I called the game dep. they said if the AR came into efect that they still did not plan to increas the doe harvest.
That would put a big ristriction on meat hunters here in Fl.

Fl is a strange state as far as thedeer heard goes.
we have 4 differnt zones and there is a realy big differance in the heard between zones.

So differnt infact the zone i live in has a spical deer seasion its 2 weeks long and after the normal deer seasions.

Last years figers in this zone was 35 + doe to 1 buck raito.
and 35+ deer per sq mile.
its probly higher this year.

littly you could put 10 days on stand and see no bucks. but you would have sean over 100 doe's.
In one day in our best travil rout stand i watched 51 does and yearling pass.
and it was only a 4 hr hunt.

charlie brown

I feel that AR's can go either way in either hurting or helping the herd. One major factor that I think has a lot to do with how well an AR will work is the population of the deer herd at the time the AR takes effect. If there is a relatively low number of deer, and only younger, low quality bucks are being harvested, then an AR might make sense. However, in place of this, you cannot allow people to shoot does where they might normally shoot a small buck. Now instead of a bunch of small bucks being shot, all the does are going to be shot, and there will be nothing left to breed!! Both sides of the breeding have to be protected. If there are antler restrictions and a limited doe harvest, hunters will have to make a sacrafice for a year or two, until the bucks begin to grow antler size of any sort. In that time though, the deer herd should have some time to increase, and will balance out with time, and allow for the eventual harvest as more does. As for areas where deer herds are higher, I have no idea how it would work. I live in a state where the deer herd is averaged at about 1 deer per square mile. The current management plan of very few doe tags and a conservative buck harvest is working at keeping the herd balanced, but the habitat is in poor shape due to a 5 year drought. Due to this, the deer herd is steadily declining. The bucks that are harvested, do represent a wide range of age classes, so I doubt an AR would be any more effective in increasing the herd size. In a good number of areas, 50% or more of the bucks carry at least 4 pts per side.

In the end, I think it should come down to what each hunter feels like harvesting, unless the deer herd becomes so low that the state MUST instate an AR to increase the deer herd.

thecontractor

jason, this is the first time i have seen anybody that is on here that lives so close to where i live. i live in tidioute. but anyways, i for one was the first one to start calling the PGC names when they first came out with the antler restrictions in PA, but i actually am quite fond of them now. i have been seeing some HUGE bucks down here and i have also been seeing more bucks since the regulations. i'll be the first to admit that i had to pass on a lot fo bucks that i couldn't tell what they were, but i'm glad. plus the herd looks so much healthier these days!!!

as far as the youth goes, young hunter's (and also seniors) go by the old antler restrictions of 1 point on one side of the head that's atleast 3" long.

Split-Hoof

From what I've heard/read, it seems to be a good thing for some states.

I couldn't see Maine adopting this though - it just wouldn't work. Where I hunt in northern Maine, young bucks make up the majority of the deer harvest. The reason behind this is it's bucks only (actually they gave out like 75 doe permits this year, but the chances of drawing one are slim). If they were to put antler restrictions in place, the deer harvest would go WAY down. All of the pressure would be on the mature bucks, making it even more difficult for hunters. This would likely result in lots of frustrated hunters unable to fill their tags, and less people buying licenses in the following years. With deer densities of 2 or less per square mile in places, and does being off limits, it would be absurd to put antler restrictions in place. The southern parts of the state are different, and in some areas it may work but I doubt many people would support the idea. I know I wouldn't!

Just trying to point out that each state - even different counties, are different and what works in one area doesn't/wouldn't work everywhere.

thecontractor

i am no wildlife biologist but from what i've read and seen on wildlife shows, a two-year old deer can grow antlers that sport a nice 6-8 point rack. the rack basically stays the same year in and year out as far as the shape and grows more points and mass as they grow older. it also depends on genes and diet. those big outfitters that we all see on tv typically only allows 5-year old deer and above to be shot. the difference in body mass is HUGE when you compare a 2-year old to a 4-5 year-old. they say that just like humans, when whitetails reach their "peak" they start going down hill as far as the size of the rack.

Coastie

Ihave to disagree with this for all of the reasons stated by others and the fact that many hunters, regardless of the liberal quotas on Does, refuse to take a Doe. The Deer population here in Georgia is huge and we are allowed 10 Does and 2 Bucks. This in addition to those you may take on managed hunts. The recent restrictions being enforced here are that one of the bucks must be four points or better on one side. I would like to see the buck regulations set so that you must harvest at least one Doe before you can take a Buck. If hunting is going to survive and we use the reasoning that hunting is a management tool, then we must begin to take the Does we are allowed to control that population. Buck only hunting has its place, but it is not in areas where population control is a factor.

BarnesX.308

A healthy 1.5 year old deer can have 6 or 8 points. My buddy shot a whopper 10 pointer a couple of years back in farm country that was only 2.5 years old. Number of points isn't a good indicator of age. Case in point: Basket-rack 8 pointer vs. a Heavy and wide, 130" class buck. Same number of points. One is a yearling and the other is 4.5 years old. It's really tough to age a whitetail on the hoof most hunters, though, (me included) so minimum points is really the only way to save some bucks. Even though you may be just saving the yearlings with lesser genetic potential.

chickory

pretty darn impressive...based on what? And article you read in Outdoor Life? As you said you will have to do some searches to see what Penna is going through. YEP! thats for sure, because you seem to have pre-conceived notions of what we have, and a dose of reality might be very, very good for you.

On paper Pa's plan and QDM methodologies sound like the second coming, but it REALITY that we deal with everyday here, not paper pushing bureacrat plans.

We have 900,000 buck hunters in pa, and 22 bloated oversise wmu's. You do your reading and then come back and we'll have a nice civil discussion about how AR's are for sissy's.