AustinTomlin

I recently published a book on Amazon titled 'Deer Hunting With Hounds: A Southern Tradition' where I provide an in-depth explanation of how deer hunting with dogs works and a discussion of some of the most prevalent concerns surrounding the practice. If you have no experience with dog-hunting, check out my book and learn about a niche style of whitetail hunting that only nine states still allow. If you're familiar with the tradition, what are your thoughts?

Bocajnala

I've never done it. I know many hunters don't like it. I think it should stick around though and I hope to experience it before it's gone.

When I was a kid everyone would get together and put on deer drives. Usually 20+ and we all shared properties. Put on drives all over the place.

Those days are gone. Everything is posted and most people sit in a stand on their property and never move.

I liked the friendships and fun times we had while pushing deer.

I think the same thing is likely happening to your tradition

AustinTomlin

Thanks for the response Bocajnala! It's hard to beat a good deer drive with a group of family and friends. We still do some of those every year when it's more practical than hunting with dogs. I'm sorry you don't get to experience that excitement anymore.

Oldtimr

I prefer to hunt deer when they are calm, not running through the woods and brush. I understand many places in the south are thick and dogs are used to get the deer running towards standers. In PA the use of dogs is not legal but we do drive deer using hunters walking slowly through the woods towards standers, under normal conditions the deer are not so alarmed that they run flat out during the drive. I believe many hunters use buckshot to hunt deer over dogs becasuse the deer are running through thick areas. I have no desire to hunt deer over dogs, I do hunt rabbits over hounds and birds over pointing dogs . However, If hunting deer over dogs is a southern tradition and legal, then when in Rome do as the Romans but I could never see myself enjoying that kind of hunt.

Mr. Slim

ive always considered myself a sportsman and would never hunt deer with dogs. as far as its a southern thing i hope it stays down there. my son lives in Va. and as far as i know it legal. when we would visit him when he lived in the southern part of Va. there are a lot of swamps down there. they used dogs to roust the deer out of those swamps. guess its better to use dogs then trying to wade into those swamps. as Oldtimer said ill pass on using dog for deer.

AustinTomlin

Thanks for the response Oldtimr! Many of the deer being chased by dogs are actually quite calm, especially when the deer is way ahead of the dogs. Oftentimes, a mature buck will get really far ahead of the dogs and just creep through the woods, stopping to smell and taking his time before deciding to cross fields or paths. Sometimes, the dogs are really close, and in your words, the deer is running flat out but that usually doesn't last long once the deer has put some space between it and the dogs. I've always used buckshot when hunting deer with dogs, but not because the deer are running through thick areas. I just grew up hunting with a shotgun and buckshot so that's what I'm comfortable using. Many dog-hunters use rifles or shotgun slugs. Like most hunters, I don't shoot what I can't see. I don't shoot at a deer when it's running through thick cover and I can barely see it. We look for holes and openings in the woods and take smart shots where we know we can kill the deer. Oftentimes, the deer stops when it sees you and that's when you take a good clean shot. Other times the deer is just loafing through the woods at twenty yards and it's not very difficult to harvest a slow moving deer at 20 yards with a shotgun when somebody has been doing it for 20 years. Thanks again for the response Oldtimr! Good luck hunting this year!

AustinTomlin

Thanks for the response Mr. Slim! With your first sentence, you seem to suggest people who hunt deer with dogs aren't sportsman. Respectfully, I'm curious what you're definition of sportsman is and how dog-hunters don't fit into that definition. Please correct me if I misunderstood your statement. If I didn't misunderstand, please enlighten us so we know exactly what you mean by sportsmen.

ButchA

Deer hunting with dogs.... *sigh* -- the stories I could tell, being a "Yankee transplant" from Upstate NY to Virginia.

No, no, I won't go into details, as I don't want to end up in a near "physical altercation" to put it in legal terms.... Me vs the deer dog clubs. Just use your imagination. Now you all know why I have to drive 2+ hours west out to the Blue Ridge Mtns of VA (where they can't/don't run dogs).

Venison (ran by deer hounds): Biologically, it is loaded with adrenaline, and other factors, causing the actual meat itself to have a very strong "gamey" flavor. It has to be marinated and soaked in various homemade recipes, in order for it to be enjoyable.

Venison (quiet, peaceful, Bang! - lights out!): Biologically, this is the most tastiest and most healthiest, as the deer wasn't under any stress or adrenaline rush/nervous anxiety, etc... Most likely the deer was just chillin' out, munching on an acorn, when the most ethical harvest occurred. Deer had no idea at all. No pain, no running off, no blood trail... Just "Bang!" that's it.

AustinTomlin

Thanks for your response ButchA. I'm sorry you have to drive 2+ hours away to enjoy a hunt. My girlfriend is from Upstate NY; there is some beautiful country up there, especially around the finger lakes.

You make a couple points with your comments. I'll try to lay them out here and then address each one in some fashion. Your claims:
(1) The meat on a deer ran by hounds has a strong gamey flavor, as a result of being chased, that is not enjoyable unless marinated and soaked.
(2) The meat on a deer that was not ran by hounds and is lethally shot with a gun (that is, the deer drops in its tracks and dies quickly) is the "tastiest" and "healthiest" venison a person could eat.
(3) A deer that drops instantly and dies quickly after being shot with a gun is under no stress.
(4) The most ethical way to harvest a deer is to shoot the deer while it is under no stress and in a way that the deer drops instantly and dies quickly.

Now, I'll address each of your points in sequential order:
(1) I've ate many pieces of venison over the years from both sides of the argument. I've ate venison that was killed while still hunting. I've ate plenty of venison that came from a deer harvested in front of hounds. I've tasted no difference in the meat. We routinely cook venison at the hunt club that was harvested in front of hounds just a few hours earlier in the day, and it tastes just as good as any other piece of venison I've had. There is no need to marinate and soak venison that came from a deer that was harvested in front of hounds. How much venison have you ate that was harvested in front of hounds? I assume you have ate at least some, because you seem to know how to make it taste "good," but I'm curious how much you've tried. Maybe you just got a bad batch. I've never tasted a difference. The only difference I've noticed about the quality of venison is the tenderness of a young deer compared to a more mature deer. The backstraps of an 80 pound doe seem to be more tender than the backstraps of a mature buck.

(2) I think your second point is addressed sufficiently by my answer to your first point. Again, I've neither tasted a difference nor felt or seen any difference in the health benefits between venison that was harvested in front of hounds versus venison that was harvested while still hunting. I think something can be addressed here about your terminology though. You rely on taste in both your first and second points. Taste is subjective, that is, I might think something tastes good that other people might not like the taste of. Relying on a subjective abstraction, that is taste, to make an objective absolute claim, is a faulty argument. I hope you can see the fallacy in your reasoning here. Then, you use the word "healthiest." You use this word strongly without providing us any standard for health. Can you please define "healthiest" so we know exactly what you're talking about here. If we don't have a definition of your word "healthiest," then we can't determine the standard by which you evaluate things as healthy or unhealthy. If we don't have a standard for how you determine what is healthy or unhealthy, then your use of the word "healthiest" is meaningless and does nothing to prove your point. Please tell us what you mean by "healthiest."

(3) I agree with you here that a deer that is shot and dies instantly goes through no stress, as it doesn't have the time to experience stress, however, I think this situation is few and far in between. How often have you shot a deer and it died in ten seconds or less? Even if the deer lives ten seconds, that deer is under stress for the ten seconds it takes for it's organs to shut down. More often than not, especially in the bow-hunting world, a deer might take 10 minutes or 8 hours to die if it was shot in the liver. So, if a deer doesn't die almost instantly, that deer will be subjected to stress. This form of stress is called acute stress. Acute stress is what all prey animals experience throughout their lives on a regular basis. When a deer runs from a coyote, it goes through what biologists call acute stress. Acute stress is not harmful to the animal that experiences it. Instead, it is just a consequence of a prey animal's instinctual fear and drive to survive. All deer experience acute stress when shot at, hit by a bullet, or put in any other circumstance that necessitates their will to survive. Chronic stress is a more serious form of stress that can cause actual harm to a deer, however, as I mention in my book, Chronic stress has never been documented on whitetail deer that have been chased by hounds. Chronic stress can cause long-term substantial negative health effects to a deer, but that has not been documented on a single deer chased by hounds.

(4) You say "when the most ethical harvest occurred," which suggests you think your described manner of harvesting a deer is the most ethical way to harvest a deer. If I understand you correctly, you claim that when a deer is shot and dies almost instantly, then that harvest is the most ethical way a deer can be harvested. If I misunderstand, please correct me in your response. Now, let's talk about what you said. You said "the MOST ethical way." When you use the word "most," you suggest that their are other ways to harvest deer ethically but those methods are not as ethical as yours, which seems a bit non-sensical to me. Something is either ethical or it is not ethical, unless you have a definition of ethics that allows for a hierarchy of ethical behavior. But again, we don't know what you're definition of ethics is because you didn't provide us with one. As a result, we don't know what you mean by ethics and have no way of evaluating your claim. If you do define ethics in a way that allows for a hierarchical structure of ethical behavior, then I am very curious as to what this definition is. Please help us here so we know exactly what you mean be "the most ethical." Generally, ethics is not defined in a way that allows for a hierarchy of ethical beliefs. For example, I define ethics as set of principles or values that helps guide one through the world. For instance, if I value the conservation of land, then the idea that land should be conserved is an ethical principle or value that I hold, and therefore, it would be unethical for me to burn down a forest for no reason at all. Please, for the sake of clarity and understanding, provide us with your definition of ethics and an explanation of how deer hunting with hounds does not fit into your definition of ethics.

Thanks again for your response. I look forward to hearing your next response.

ButchA

Thanks.... I just know from experience, and from talking to guys way older than me.. Venison is a delicacy as we all know. But how it ends up that way depends on where the deer last was and/or where it grew up. Constantly harassed by hounds or worse - coyotes.... Or, have a nice quiet, mountain life, while still extra wary of anything and everything, but under no constant pressure of having get up and run, run, run, run, to avoid hound dogs.