The slug gun blues!
 

I live in the only slug gun county in my area. I'm surrounded by rifle counties. I prefer hunting with my rifles. However, there is some really good deer hunting in my county....including right behind my house.

That being said, I've been having nothing but trouble with my slug guns for years. I have two Remington 1187's, a 12 ga. and a 20 ga., both with 21" rifle barrels with the cantilever scope mounts w/Leupolds Shotgun Scopes on both.

I've tried about every type of sabot slug I can in both of these slug guns and can't get them to shoot better then 5-6" groups at 100 yards. I will get a good group, then the next group opens back up. I've sent barrels from both guns back as well as both scopes. So my conclusion is it's probably not an equipment problem, it's me.

I'm doing something wrong. I can't figure it out. I have friends that shoot 2 to 3" groups with their slug guns. I'm at a loss here.

Help, NYH1.

Get a Savage 220 and try a bolt action slugger.

Bullet spends more time in the barrel = less forgiveness

Have you shot your friends guns? Had them shoot yours? Have you personally seen them shoot 2-3" groups? Are your first groups good then falling apart with a heated barrel?

Ive gotten 1" groups out of my savage 220

I ran in to the same issue with my groups. I shoot a single shot rifled barrel. So feeding and the like was not the issue. I actually found this on another site and while I've only tried 3 of the brands the Remington Accu tips gave me the best groups 2.5 inch. Winchester Platinum...bad
Winchester Partition...bad
Hastings Laser Accurate..Had some good groups, and some flyers.
Lightfeilds..great at 50, very poor at 100 yards.
Remington Copper solids..pretty good!
Remingto Accu-Tips..Very good.

Hope it helps

I also use accu tips

No.


Yes. I've also seen other guys at the range with similar setups as me shoot pretty good groups as well.


No, they all seem to be bad. Then I'll get a good group. I'll shoot another group and it'll open right back up like the other groups. This is with both guns.


NYH1.

Thanks, I've tried most of those. My results with Lightfields is about the same, OK at 50, not so good at 100. Partition Gold, Accu-Tips, Hornady SST all over the place.


NYH1.

Please don't take offense at this but I think you may have an operator problem. This is actually a common problem with 12 gauge slug's. Even in a semi auto they tend to knock the snot out of the shooter. Some can't even recover well with a 20 gauge as they aren't the light kicking slug guns some think they are. If it isn't you, then you could just have a couple of barrels that are inconsistent. Poor rifling consistency could easily cause poor grouping. I would also take a close look at the crowns on both barrels. Just a tiny wear spot on a crown of a slug barrel will throw the accuracy to the wind. Like others mentioned, have the guys that you know can shoot consistently with their own slug guns take a few rounds with yours. If they are still throwing badly, then you know the culprit is the guns and not you. Shooting from bench rest positions with a slug gun is brutal to say the least. I don't think I have ever met a soul that finds it a fun day at the range to shoot slugs from a bench. One thing I found though to take a lot of the brutality from it was shooting from high bags and sitting upright. This position will still allow a good rest position while giving your stock much more meat to take the recoil as well as much more natural movement as you would in the field. Give that a try and see if your groups improve.

No offense taken. Recoil doesn't bother me within reason. I've been shooting slug guns my whole deer hunting life, 26 years. The only gun that ever bothered me was my friends 1187 3 1/2" turkey gun. I shot it with 3 1/2" #2 turkey loads IIRC. That was brutal. I lost focus in my eyes for a few seconds.


However, I do believe it's a operator problem. I just can't figure out what I'm doing wrong.


Thanks, NYH1.

Are you shooting from a bench? Are you letting the gun jump freely when you shoot? Feel good about your trigger pull? Are you able to stack them up at shorter range?

I would certainly try trading shots with your buddies and see how that goes. What guns are they shooting?

Shot my hunting partners 12ga remington 870 with a hasting slug barrel and 3 inch ammo. Decided no way was I ever going to shoot a 12ga slug gun that thing knocked me silly. So I resorted to a muzzle loader and have did pretty well over the years. then one day I was cleaning out a drawer in my reloading room and came across some 20ga slugs, the old foster type.
Grabbed my model 37 with the mod choke barrel and went out back to my range. I will admit those were shot at 50 yards but I was impressed never the less. Decided I wanted a bolt slug gun and the 220 had just came out and I do believe the dealer got a whole shippment of seconds as some thing was wrong with every one I was given to look at.

Settled on a 870 Remington Slugger, counter person said he had one and it shot Remington buck hammers best in 2 3/4 size and was awful with any 3 inch load.

He explained his theroy that the 3 inch was so strong it was taking a big jump down the barrel before grabbing the rifling. Could be don't know. When remington announced the demise of the buck hammer ammo I bought every box I could find and hope I have enough to last my life time...



In retro spect to your problem I would get rid of the 12ga to start. a 20ga has plenty of what it takes to kill a deer.
Also for get the 3 inch ammo and go to to 2 3/4 inch ammo and give that a try.


:D. Al

It sounds as though you have covered all the bases well and in that light I don't think its you per se. How is your eye health? Had them checked lately? Do you wear glasses? Sometimes even a small change in the eyes can screw with how things look thru a scope and honestly this sounds more like a vision thing than a gun/ammunition thing.

Could be your mounts Cantilever mounts aren't the most secure mounting method. When I had to use a slug gun I hot an HR ultra-light and put Talley mounts on it. With the 50 caliber sabot slug from Winchester it would shoot 1 1/2 inch groups at 100 yards all day long. Tipped over a lot of whitetails with that rig.

You should switch shotguns with those other guys at the range and keep note of the results. Two things I can add from experience.

The recoil doesn't have to physically bother you to make make you flinch. I will admit I am a little less accurate with a 12 gauge due to the recoil. It gets worse the more I shoot even though I can handle it. Lots of practice with smaller rifles, cheaper ammo and less recoil and more trigger time at the range, greatly improved my shooting ability after growing up shooting strictly shotguns.

I've had bad scope mounts, lose scope mounts, bad scopes, banged up iron sights, heavy triggers, certain ammo, drinking the night before, too much caffeine and tobacco use in different scenarios mess my groups up. Good luck figuring it out.

Cantilever mount is most likely your problem.

Savage 220.

Have had 1187s etc...

Yes, from a bench resting forearm and stock on sand bags.


No. I pull the gun back into my shoulder and pull down on the forearm to keep the gun rested as solidly as possible.


The triggers are typical Remington Shotgun Triggers. I'm not getting a lot of crosshair movement while pulling the trigger.


Obviously the closer the target is the better the groups. In my 12 ga. Lightfields shoot ok at 50 yds. but open up to quite a bit at 100 yds.

I'll probably have to wait until next year at this point to have anyone else shoot them. We're midway through our 3 week deer season now.


Most shoot Remington 870, 1100 or 1187's.


NYH1.

I think Flags alluded to the same issue and I concur. It would seem logical to me that large and inconsistent groups could boil down to a scope/ mounting issue. When I decided to get a slug gun I eliminated consideration on all cantilever mounts due to what I considered to be a very fragile mount considering the hard shock brought out by a slug gun. Shooting from a bench with 3" mags with my new model 37 gave me my first and only idiot cut the first time I shot it. I was shocked and totally surprised at how hard it thumped me. I too came to the realization that there was no reason to go with 3" loads. If I had to set up another I would probably go with a 20.

No glasses. I do have slight astigmatism that I never knew I had until I started using Aimpoints on M4's. It's not a big enough deal to make much of a difference. I'm really good with those types of setups.


I shoot my Rem. 700's of different configurations and my accurized AR15's (Mk12 types) with Leupold's like I was made to do it. It's just these damn slug guns.

NYH1.

I only use 2 3/4" slugs.


NYH1.

Stop pulling down on the forearm. Just hold it and REST the forearm, not the barrel, on the sand bag.

Don't use over a 9 power scope at most, 4 power is plenty. This eliminates parallax as a possibility.

Good chance you are flinching.

I'd take everything between the scope and the barrel apart, clean it, check for loose stuff during disassembly. Put it back together and scratch witness marks when assembled to check for any movement when you are shooting it. Make sure it's all tight going back together.

Shouldn't take more than a shot or two to get it back on target. It should be close already UNLESS something was out of kilter before you took it apart. In that case it should improve the situation.

I shot a lot of different slugs through my 870 with the cantilever mount and scope. I don't remember what was the exactly best ever result but I remember the plain old Winchester 1oz sabot was close enough to argue over and they had them in every store. That's what I hunt with in it. I just shoot up the odds and ends I have left as a first test shot to see if it's close when I'm suspicious, like if it gets bumped a little or the first test shot of the year and such. Winchesters are the money shot set up, for me at least.

My advice is just get you a savage 220

This doesn't address his question at all.

If I don't hold the front down it lifts off the sand bags and my groups string up and down horribly. Instead of having big round groups I get big oval groups. But I'll try this again.

I have Leupolds on both. A 2-7x33 in the 20 ga. and a 3-9x40 on the 12 ga. Parallax is set at 75 yds.

I don't think I'm flinching. I load my rounds one at the time. Every once in a while I'll have my son either load a round or close the bolt on an empty chamber so I can't see and don't know what he did. Then he'll watch to see if I flinch or not if he didn't load a round. He says I'm not.

This has been done numerous times. Both scopes have been sent back. Both barrels have been sent back. Scope rings have been marked to see if there was any movement.

Thanks, NYH.

I appreciate everyone's input and advise. My biggest problem was as usual I was busy getting ready for winter (plow trucks, staking driveways ect.) and started getting my slug guns ready late as usual. Next year I'm going to start in the summer.


That being said, I'm not getting another slug gun or a muzzleloader (not my thing). Maybe a 1/4 of my deer hunting is in our shotgun area. I know these 1187's are capable of 2-3" groups at 100 yds. I guess I'll just have to keep plugging away.


Again, I appreciate everyone help! ;)


NYH.

As I have already stated, get a better mount than the cantilever mount.

I suggested the 220 because at the price of these slugs it don't take long for buying a 220 to become cheaper than fighting with a shotgun.

I don't know if you mean you are literally pulling on the gun when you shoot or just guiding it but if you are pulling on it try more just guiding it straight back.

Other than that I think you are gonna have to get a proven shooter to shoot the guns and confirm its you and not the guns..Some of them really just don't shoot very good and a lot of them are really picky on which slugs they want.

What better mount is there for an 1187?

My opinion (been known to be wrong) is that you should not hold the forearm down. I was told a long time ago that holding it down, or vicing it to sight it in is not good. It would seem to be really accurate but when you are hunting it is going to raise up and be way different then if it was held down at the range. If it is grouping bad at the range it's not because of the gun jumping while being shot. Reason I ever even thought about is was years ago a guy recommended I use gun vice to clamp the gun down and then it can be ready to hunt in 2 shots. I asked around and that's not the best way, maybe to get it close.

There is a guy that actually makes a mount that is mounted on top. You send him the receiver and he drills, taps and installs it. I have a link to him somewhere in my records. It is a much better option that the cantilever.

I chose to go with the HR Ultra-light single shot when I need a slug gun. Never regretted it but sold it as soon as I left the East coast since I will never live where shotguns are req'd for deer again.

I actually prefer the cantilever mount on the barrel over a receiver mount on a shotgun with interchangeable barrels....however I don't like either one.

My shotgun is tapped and receiver mounted but its not an interchangeable barrel shotgun. A tapped barrel on an HR is also a good setup.

I'm not a big fan of pumps or autos for slugs at all really. I'd go single shot or bolt action....there is a reason they are the most accurate and consistent slug guns on the market.

I have many Slug Guns, of course my Savage 220 hands down is my #1 gun, 3/4" groups at 100 yards, 1.5" groups at 200 yards. But I do have two 1187s with the rifled/cantilever barrel topped off with Leupold VX-II 3-9x40......The 12ga Accutips 2-3/4", the 20ga 3" Accutips, and both shooting great, not as tight as the Savage but very accurate

The savage is not only a great shooter but also varies much, much less from gun to gun,is much less picky about slugs, and much more forgiving to shoot.

I set the guns in the sand bags on the bench. I pull the gun back into my shoulder while pulling the forearm down onto the front sand bag. Not overly pulling it back or down but enough to keep it steady and from jumping off the front bag.


If I don't do this to the 12 ga. the front will fly up and off the bag.


NYH1.

How do you hold your 1187's on the bench when sighting them in?


NYH1.

He's having problems with accuracy, in a sub par slug gun set up. He's tried numerous remedies.

It answers his issue succinctly. Savage 220's are known for accuracy out of the box.

make sure the barrel is flush to the receiver, and there isn't any wiggle in it. Friend just got the 1187 20ga slug gun, and it got sent back to Remington, the receiver seems to have been milled to wide giving the barrel wiggle room......also check your scope mounts are secured

I use this rest, made by Caldwell it's called the Matrix, about $40/$45 from Dicks Sporting Goods......

I hold my shotgun firm to my shoulder, left hand lightly on the barrel

So HOW do you know those guns are capable of 2-3" groups?

I had trouble with Lightfield slugs in one of my guns. One time I'd get a GREAT 3 shot group. Make the appropriate adjustment. Then the next shot was a mile off. I'd shoot THREE for a group and it would all barely fit on a 5 gallon bucket.

I'd go through all kinds of wasted effort and it would shoot an awesome 3 shot group. I'd make an adjustment and dejavue all over again.

Finally came out one day and just sat down and shot FIVE with no changes and three looked awesome, the other two were like a gorilla fired them. Up until then I was convinced Lightfields were the most awesome slugs on the market.

I always let the entire gun return to ambient temperature if it starts to warm up even 5 degrees.

I use a laser therm gun to keep track of barrel temps.

When I'm hunting the FIRST shot is the only one that really counts. They won't stand still for practice and warm up shots.

My 12 gauge 870 with a Hastings cantilever barrel loves Remington Buck hammers. My shoulder hated them while on the bench. Deer hated them while in the field. Remington no longer makes Buck Hammers.

I thought the cantilever setup was awesome as I could remove barrel and scope as a single unit from the receiver. Last years bench session with my 870 made me switch to a muzzle loader. I will never look back.

Several friends have the Savage 220 and love it. However, there are issues working the action. Have another with a 11-87 and it drives tacks. To the OP, the best advice already provided is to have someone else shoot your gun or get different one. Although you seem adapt at shooting, it sure seems you have checked every possible variable except yourself.