pass-through vs. internally expended energy?
 

Does anyone know of any studies on deer size game comparing the effectiveness of a pass through shot vs. a shot which expends all the bullet energy within the body of the deer? Looking for an objective study.

Thanks.

Don't know of any studies on it, but a complete pass through where the bullet expends all it's energy internally while barely exiting and leaving two holes is usually the best of both worlds!

There are all kinds of theories as well as conclusions. If you have a speedy bullet, say a 150gr from a .30-06 then you will have, depending on bullet design, the best of both worlds usually. Bullet expending a ton of energy and creating a massive wound channel while still retaining enough energy to pass through. This way, if you have chosen a particularly tough animal, you will have a good blood trail as 2 holes are always better than one.

Then you have the "big and slow" crowd which like to have a big bullet of a less tough design for easy expansion then plows right on through creating sufficient damage internally but still bulldozing it's way on through the animal.

Typically, most hunters like pass through performance. I am one of them. My choice of shots is high shoulder seen here:



Placed correctly, this will drop an animal in it's tracks. If you miss low, then you are still nailing lungs and possibly heart as well. Miss high and you will be more than likely missing the animal entirely so no walking off injuries. A perfectly placed high shoulder shot not only interrupts spinal function, but also takes out the lungs.

I prefer to just poke a hole through both lungs and out the other side, I hate ruining meat.

Ive got no problem tracking them 100 yards

Move down south, where you have swamps, cutovers, bears and coyotes, you might change your mind... ;)

Fast expanding bullets on center lung shots put them down faster than premium bullets like the Partitions, etc...With high shoulder shots, they all work as long as they bust the shoulder and put all that shock in the spinal cord...

partition in the neck and the deer is laying right where it was standing before shot. I reload for my 270 with 130 grain partition @ 2900fps and I wouldn't recommend shooting a deer in shoulder or missing a high shoulder shot or you will destroy a ton of meat. imo this projectile dumps majority of energy in animal but saves enough to exit.
I 99% of time shoot neck shots as long as deer is under 250 yards. but the 1 deer I have shot with them that wasn't a neck shot destroyed front part of deer. I could put my fist in exit hole.

depending on where you hit animal would depend on if you are wanting bullet to leave energy in animal or save enough to pass through.

He's got a very good point there Rock. It's also important if you are hunting public lands with high hunter population to drop a deer where it stands. That's the main reason I started using the high shoulder shot when I was living in PA. Not to mention, at my age, dropping them right there USUALLY means shorter drag time as well :D Of course there was that one time I arrowed a nice buck and danged if I didn't track it to 15 feet from my truck!!! Was awful nice of him wasn't it :D

I want 2 holes. More blood out and more air in disrupting the pressure in the chest.

Never heard of an official study, although I'd love to read it if someone has heard of one.

I honestly don't think either situation in inherently better, at least speaking from my admittedly limited experience. I've had some bullets stay in the deer and some bullets exit, but the end result has always been deer that was always recovered after a short run. What kills deer is extensive damage to internal organs. Whether a bullet exits or not isn't all that relevant if it leaves a gaping wound in both lungs and/or the heart.

Where an exit wound comes in handy is when you're following a blood trail. Creating two holes from which blood can exit and drip onto the ground would certainly be preferable to one hole if you're hunting in a lot of thick vegetation.

On a different note, super_hunt is right about the high shoulder shot. Put a bullet there, and it's game over for whatever you're hunting.

How do folks possibly manage to bow hunt?

Sometimes I shoot shoulder here if I need to just like I would anywhere but it doesn't change what I prefer.

Doesn't matter where I'm at, I want to eat the front shoulders if possible but will and do adjust if I need to.

I try to put it right behind the shoulder and in front of the diaphragm. I want two holes and a lot of blood.
The hydrostatic shock is still there on a pass through. I believe that hydrostatic shock is more potent than dumping all the bullet energy.
The term "knock down power" is a misnomer.

I've shot deer right before dark and tried to anchor them by taking ought their shoulders, but it is nice to have fully intact shoulders when I can.

C. Davis

I switched to the Interlocks and Interbonds a good while back. With the Interlocks especially, I get very little meat damage from my 7mm.08 with the 139gr. With my .30-06, using the 180gr Interlock I can dang near eat right up to the hole on the entrance. The exit on the other hand, well, grenade anyone :D The Interbonds perform better than the SST's as far as holding together but are a bit more "explosive" damage wise than the Interlocks.

Rock, as far as your question about Bowhunting down South, it can indeed become quite difficult in the swamp areas and such. But your thick brushy areas are an actual aid as long as you got a good pass through on a clean lung shot. Blood high up on the leaves makes for an easy trail to follow.

Bullets that "expend all of their energy in the animal" do so because they run out of steam before they exit. Bullets that penetrate expend plenty of energy in the animal, they just have enough left over to exit.

Say you have a bullet that hits with 2000 ft/lbs of energy but doesn't penetrate. You would say that it expends all of it's energy in the animal. And you would be right. But, you could also have a bullet that hits with 4000 ft/lbs of energy. Maybe that expends 3000 ft/lbs in the animal and has an extra 1000 to penetrate and leave an exit wound. I would prefer that.

Studies aside you should do what works for you to get a quick clean kill.


I like one hole just behind the shoulder mangle the lungs and with the shot gun usually the heart is damaged some.

Did a lot of bullet research years ago and picked my bullets so I do not ruin much meat and the deer mostly are bang flops if I do what I am supposed to do.


:D Al

I have shot deer with multiple calibers and grains from 80- 260. They all killed deer pretty well.... The most "bang flops" I've had though have been with remington accutip slugs... None have exited the deer, and all the deer either flopped over or took one or two more jumps and dropped over. I personally typically aim for a double lung. But on a few certain properties in urban areas that I've hunted in the past, I aim for a shoulder shot to drop them. Just depends on the situation. I don't know which is better. A complete pass through typically gives you a better blood trail though. And being able to track a hit deer is important.
-Jake

I don't even know how many deer I have taken with my .308 and 150 grn corelochts, but it was a lot. I always aim for the crease behind the shoulder most of them went right down, the ones that didn't didn't go more than 25 yards or so and left a blood trail like an open fire hose. Except for one brisket shot and one head shot the behind the shoulder is where I aim. Believe it or not the brisket shot deer went right down and blew lung pieces out onto the ground, The bullet was found under the hide back at the hind quarters. That was the only bullet I fired into a deer that wasn't a pass through. The only other rifle I use or have for big game is a 45-70, I have taken 4 deer with it and use the same aim point. I use Hornady 325 grn Leverevolution rounds. Funny thing is they take a few steps before they go down with a totally destroyed boiler room. As others have said, I would rather a through and through than a round that stops inside. Both the rounds I use have the smoke to up end a deer.

A lot of sweat and skeeters, Rock. It's very common here, during the month of October (bow season), for the high to be in the high 70's to low 80's. I'll usually hunt opening weekend then either wait till a cold front moves in or gun season starts. Doesn't make any sense to be sweating constantly and fighting skeeters up in a tree IMO.

A complete pass-through is also a longer wound channel.

I want a big hole, all the way through, with the heart in the middle.

The lungs are just a back up chance for a little mistake. NOT a plan.

oh we get plenty of that here too.

You aint kiddin!!! But I pity the guys hunting early archery in Florida, Louisiana, Lower Alabama, basically all the southern coastal states. The skeeters down there should have to file flight plans with the FAA!!! South Central Pa is pretty nasty during early archery as well...

Haha heard that! MS delta is ridiculous too. There are literally speakers installed every where that produce a loud humming noise and supposedly the skeeters cant stand it.

Skeeters get me more up north(Ontario) now the chiggers down south tear me up.

Might have something to do with the times of year Ive been there.

I'm pretty sure if I lived down south my solution would be too move north.

Can someone explain this "internally expended energy" concept in a way that makes sense?

Seems to me that on a pass through shot, the bullet to hits the first shoulder at, for example, 2000 ft lbs of energy, half way through, it's got 1750 ft lbs of energy, and on exit it hits the far shoulder at, for example, 1500 ft lbs of energy. How is this hypothetical bullet not striking the animal harder than one that hits the first shoulder at 2000 ft lbs, half way through, it's down to 1000 ft lbs, and by the time it makes it to the second shoulder, its down to zero?

Doesn't it make more sense that, as the bullet is transversing from one side of the animal to the other, the bullet is striking each bit of flesh, bone and organ within the animal at any given nanosecond with whatever energy that bullet possesses at that time?

I think the idea is bullet expansion creates enough surface area to use its energy inside the target rather than waste its energy after it exits.

Sounds to me like a theory made up to promote the sale of firearms chambered for cartridges too weak to achieve pass through or someone trying to justify why he doesn't like shooting a 7mm Rem Mag. :)

I still think that if you are using an appropriately designed hunting bullet, a round that hits the front shoulder at 2000 ft lbs and the far shoulder at 1000 ft lbs is hitting that animal harder and more effectively than a round that hits the front shoulder at 2000 ft lbs and doesn't even make it all the way to the far shoulder.

Well all I can tell you is that is incorrect.

My deer gun could easily zip right through but the bullet is instead designed to expend its energy inside the target.

The reason a bullet hits an animal at 2000fps and doesn't make it through is precisely because it is doing more damage.

Doesn't matter what gun you are shooting the concept is the same.

I don't necessarily prefer it that way but its absolutely real.

Have to disagee with a basic assumption
 

\ I used a "slow" and in a heavy 200 grain bullet on deer, when I was younger and still do on occasion.
For quite some time my bullets would pass through and all the deer with an all pass through was immediately knocked down and the deer killed . I was so effective that I never fired for the lungs and fired at the high shoulder area.
Then checking one deer, I found a lump on the far side of the shot. It was a bullet. I cut the hide and found the bullet had expanded to twice its width. It went from .35 inch bullet to a .70 inch bullet.

It was effective enough for me. Never did go to a lung shot. Never did worry about what other's did. And never worried about being different.

Google ballistics gel tests between a Berger and a Barnes and you'll see what they mean by "expelling all energy" inside of an animal instead of the tree behind it.

Both work, both kill animals every year...more then one way to skin a cat.

Kind of tickles me so many want a pass thru on a deer so they can track it. I my self like a bullet that does the job on the deer so you don't have to track it you can watch it drop. Maybe travel 30 yards at the most.


Same goes for a coyote I want one hole to sew up in the hide not two holes. Let that bullet tear the guts up lungs heart and all between.


:D Al

Not a gimmic or theory IPSC...Just plain old physics. When a bullet opens up, it has more surface area. Energy doesn't "go away" but "dissipates". All that energy from momentum is meeting resistance. This causes the transfer of that energy into the animal in the form of "energy waves", also known as a "temporary wound channel", causing some permanent damage and some temporary displacement according to which organs are in the path (some have a lot of pliability and some have less so damge varies). According to many variables including, but not limited to, weight of bullet, initial size (both diameter of total bullet as well as meplat), speed of opening, size of opening, petal shear, retained weight, and of course speed at impact, you can have massive damage or mediocre damage. You want, for the most part anyway, to have a greater portion of that energy dumped into the animal for internal damage. As I said previously, I like 2 holes just in case you have hit one of those extra tough, don't know they are dead, animals that just absolutely refuse to go down even with an obliterated heart. Been there, done that. So I like deep penetrating bullets that, while still dumping a ton of energy into the animal, still has enough to pass through.

Unfortunately a lot of those bullets stop at the far hide when they are designed to give you the best of both worlds. I get a lot of that.

I'd rather they error on the side of pass through myself and mine do if I shoot straight broadside but quartering I get a lot of bullets stopped by the far hide.

Of course the animals range from 50lbs to 275lbs so thats also a factor. Its the big boys with any quarter at all that I often don't get through the far hide.

The buck I shot this year had the ole far side lump with just a little quarter and no significant bone hit. He was a puddle inside and didn't go out of sight but I'd still rather they cut the slits just a little shallower....not much but just a little.

alley I am in kinda same boat as you. if a deer runs after the shot in my eyes it is a bad shot. I cant stand having to track a deer after a rifle shot. a lot of people seem to treat hunting like playing pool. always planning next step. what tracking job will have to be done. (bow on the other hand is little different but it does keep me from bow hunting in evenings because of it)

You must be new to hunting. I've taken every animal in the deer family and can tell you with no uncertainty whatsoever that EVERY animal reacts differently to rifle hits. The ONLY absolute DRT (dead right there) shot is brain/spinal interruption. Period. I've had them drop on the spot and run for 100+yards with obliterated heart and lungs. I had a little tiny Doe in Kentucky, live weight was around 125-135 pounds, hit with a 180gr CoreLoct from a .30-06 at 58 yards, run 160 yards. Got to her, opened her up, lungs were totaled, heart had a hole in it that I could get 3 of my huge sausage fingers in and the off side shoulder busted into several pieces.

To put it bluntly, you couldn't be more wrong. Those that you have observed "planning" a tracking job are doing exactly what they are supposed to do! My shot choice being high shoulder USUALLY eliminates tracking jobs since it USUALLY results in a DRT but the fact is, no one is perfect. I always observe the animals position at the time of the shot and try to figure which way it will go if I don't drop it in it's tracks. That's what any hunter worth his salt will do. You should take notes from those you observe planning a track job and you should also learn to get over your dislike for blood trailing. Guys that can't blood trail a hit deer don't belong in the woods shooting at them with ANYTHING.

Go through that a lot as well Rock. The large diameter of slugs that we have to use here have a HUGE meplat typically so that is a ton of initial resistance right from the get go. I remember some of the old "punkinballs" from days past that had a harder alloy, almost like a hard cast. Those puppies would truck through a deer and barely even slow down!! Those were some shoulder busting slugs.

New to hunting not accurate but have only hunted in southeast.
I explained in earlier post I am 100% in favor of shooting neck shots. I choose to make that shot as they fall where you shoot them.
You stated guys that can't blood trail a deer doesn't belong in the woods.
I never said I didn't know how and Haven't recovered wounded deer. You assumed.

I stated I don't like having to blood trail a deer.

So before you go bashing someone for something make sure your facts are accurate and not speculated.

Ive still got a bunch of those but I'd be happy if they just took a little expansion out of the Remington accutips I'm shooting now. I'm not really unhappy with them now but I'd be happier if they would expand a little less and error on the side of wasting a little energy rather than erroring on the side of running out of energy. Its not just the material, the pocket is too deep



Its kind of like broadheads....the obsession with maximum damage is starting to rob peter to pay paul.

Neighbor came to ask permission to recover deer they shoot in a wide open corn field, then run to my place.
As far as I know they have never recovered a deer they claim to have shot that runs to my place. Oh they are shooting 12ga shot guns with slugs.


Any way he said if I ever needed help looking for a deer he was just next door.
I said thanks but I don't take iffy shots, and my deer do not run far at all that are hit with the buck hammers I use at present in my tiny 20ga.


My 2015 buck went farther than any other I have shot with that tiny 20ga. Scratched my head over that 35 yard run for a little bit, then reran the shot thru my head and it was the angle. just clipped the tip of bottom of the heart hardly did any damage to the lungs at all.


Read Muzzle loader forum a while back and people were dising the Hornady XTP pistol bullets in a muzzle loader because they came apart. Way I see that is you have a big chunk of lead plowing thru the body cavity and a smaller chunk of copper doing the same thing IN THE BODY CAVITY.


:D Al