Is it even worth the fight?
 

Not sure if this is the correct place for this but here goes.
I've been hunting since age 14. 43 now. have killed many of deer with every weapon available. love the sport!
Started taking my son out when he was 13 as well. 17 now.
He has a slight ADD so I have to be sure he has all gear when I take him out in the field. He also has a hard time making out the antler requirements (Antler restriction state of PA) so we typically carry one pack and usually use one gun and sit in the same stand. he typically goes out 2-3 times during the entire season. he probably would not hunt if I didn't nudge him.

To make a long story even longer, I was visited by a game warden for the first time in my life. I was in a climber on private property on the last day of doe season. I have a legal doe tag for the area and a few other areas. The officer said I may be hunting too close to an occupied residence. within 150 yards. I gave him my spotting scope and he ranged the house at 157 yards. he said I was ok to stay where I was as long as i do not shoot into the safety zone. the officer then asked to see my license so I opened my pack and gave him my license holder. he asked if I was James and I said yes, he asked who was Luke and I said that he was my son. he then asked why I was carrying his license. I explained that he was my son who is a minor and we always keep our equipment together in one pack. he then stated that it was illegal to possess another persons license. I tried to explain that my son is not just another person but in fact my legal responsibility. he didn't want to hear it and confiscated his license along with expired licenses from 2013/2014. he stated that i cannot carry expired licenses either. so apparently now i am awaiting a fine. is it worth the fight to try to appeal this ridiculous situation?

It's worth the fight. The game warden was just looking to pick on you because he couldn't get you for hunting within the safety zone.

That,s nuts.I,d fight it and explain your son,s situation.

If he didn't write a ticket on the spot, he probably isn't going to, but if you get one in the mail you could plead not guilty or nolo contendere and ask for a court hearing to explain the situation. IMHO he didn't use much common sense, but it is probable that he felt you may have been planning on using both tags yourself if it was the last day of the season. In the future I would place the son's tag in a pocket of his securely and take it out at the end of each hunt so there is no reason for a GW to suspect anything in the future if you're checked. I had a long, nasty reply about this, but went back and edited it after thinking this situation over and reading the reply by Oldtimr, which was excellent!

Luck of the draw, this is the PA Game Code regarding possessing the license of another.

§ 2711. Unlawful acts concerning licenses.

(a) General rule.--Except as otherwise provided in this title, it is unlawful for any person to:

(1) Hunt or take any game or wildlife by any means or manner or device, including the use of dogs, without first securing and personally signing the required license. The required license must be carried on person when hunting, furtaking or taking any game or wildlife within this Commonwealth.

(2) Procure a license in a name other than the person's legal name, furnish an address other than his legal place of residence and domicile or make any false or misleading statement whatsoever in securing a license.

(3) Lend or transfer in any manner whatsoever a license or game or wildlife kill tag to any other person regardless of the purpose.

(4) Issue, acquire or aid, assist or conspire, either for that person or any other person, in procuring any hunting or furtaking license for which that person is not legally entitled thereto.

(5) Possess while hunting or taking game or wildlife or going to or from hunting or taking game or wildlife any report card, license tag, license stamp or game or wildlife kill tag belonging to another.


Your son was not with you at the time you were checked in your stand. Most likely because the officer recived a safety zone complaint. Since you were only 7 yards in the cleat of a safety zone it would make little sense to criticise the officer for checking you. Next, it is clearly illegal for you to have in possession the hunting license or big game tag of another while hunting. Since you did not say your son was with you when you were checked I have to assume you were alone. It was entirely correct what the officer told you, how was he to know you were not planning to use your son's tag and try to take more deer than allowed by using your son's tag? Since WCOs are not blessed with being mind readers to know if you planned to use your son's tag he did exactly what he had evwery reason to cite you. Since you were not issued a citation on the spot I suspect you were checked by a Deputy WCO who must pass the citation through his WCO before filing it. Had your son been hunting with you, I suspect it would not have been an issue. You certainly have a right to take a hearing on any charge, but it is apparent you are guilty of possessing the license and tag of another while hunting. As far as citing you because he could not charge you with a safety zone, that is utter nonsense, there are no incentives for numbers of citations, that is said out of ignorance or the dislike of conservation officers.

oldtimer, thank you for the reply.
I understand everyone has a job to do and i don't fault the officer or the department. if we didn't have them we would not have the opportunities of today and in the future but The fact that my son has ADD and needs help keeping his gear together, the fact that i did not attempt to tag game, conceal when asked, hide or intentionally possess the license for personal gain, the fact that it was the last day of doe only season and the fact that my son does not possess a doe tag would make the license a bit hard for me to use and or tag game. the fact that i did have a doe tag in my name for the area. i realize it is against the law to posses "joe dirts" license, and or use joe dirts license to take game but this is my son, a minor, my responsibility.
You know, i have carried my fathers 1970 hunting license for good luck in my pack since i was 13. (pink and made of paper, in its own case) he wasn't around and this was the only thing i had to prove he was an outdoorsman. one of the reasons i persisted to be a outdoorsman today. i suppose if i asked that officer, technically, that would be illegal too.

If you are worried about your son forgetting his license, just put it in a license holder and pin it on the back of his hunting coat just like we all did until a few years ago. That officer didn't know you from Adam, he has heard more lies from more people than you have probably ever met and using someone elses license to kill a deer is a very common violation. Under the law, it need not be proven that you had intent to use the license, if you had used the license, there would have been a second charge, the game Code is strict liability. That is your sons license, it needs to be on his person when he is hunting, not your person and you cannot by law carry it for sure when he is not with you. Now you know you were in violation. Plead your case before a judge if you wish, you may get a soft one but you were guilty of a violation and if it were me, I would not use my son as a defense for my mistake, I would just say I made a mistake with no nefarious intent.

Unfortunately it sounds like there was a clear violation on your part. Theres the letter of the law and then theres the spirit of the law, which could be one reason you weren't issued a citation after giving your explanation of why you had the license on you. Or maybe its like Oldtimr said and the citation will be mailed or issued to you later. Either way, it doesn't sound like you'd have grounds to contest this citation. Why you were carrying your son's license makes since to me but I think its best to figure out a different arrangement for the future. Good luck with what ever happens!

Sounds to me like the property owner nearby sent the warden your way. Generally wardens will not spend all the time and effort to check 1 or 2 hunters on private property unless they suspect something or have been given a tip. Interesting law on carrying old licenses - I bet I have 5+ old back tags stuffed in my back tag holder!

I'd say its time for the 17 year old to carry his own license.....if he forgets it he can sit in the truck.

I'm sure that sounds rude but I don't mean it that way its just that "slight ADD" will never excuse anything in this word.

Not the law, not college, and not an employer.

About every kid alive has symptoms of "slight ADD" otherwise known as lack of responsibility.

Anyway that is the fight I would be fighting.

It's like a cop who is dead set on giving you a ticket.


.................... just write it up; or can I speech to someone who still has some common courtesy or at the very less some common sense !

Sheridan, you do not have a clue! Just what does that giberish mean? If a person violates the law, they have no reasonable expectation not to be prosecuted particularly if there is no question of a violation being committed. If they get a break with a warning, fine, however if they don't, they have no reason to complain. Since you were not at the scene, you have no idea of What happened except what you have been told by the violator who was upfront about what he did. The reason we have courts is so both sides can present their case, even when it is apperant from the violators own words he was wrong he can present a case in court. I suggest before you make inane statements about an officer you know nothing about, you hear both sides and if that is not possible, do not make pronouncements as though you know what happened. Not all that long ago here in PA we had a young WCO shot and killed by some puke who had just jacklighted two deer. He was a very good and well like officer in the area he served. He lost his life working for the sportsmen and women of our state. I don't find comments about officers any officers, by those with no knowledge about a situation either amusing or clever.

Oltimr,

"Not all that long ago here in PA we had a young WCO shot and killed by some puke who had just jacklighted two deer."

You must have missed the part about "common sense" .............Some of us can still tell the difference !!!

BTW - You will find no one who has more respect for "our" laws and the people who are charged with upholding them than me.

Sort of a grey area. Yes, you did carry your sons license, but it wasn't a license that could be used for a doe in that area by you, or your son.

So, it shows you had no intent to use it.

Seems as though the GW did use some common sense if he didn't write the guy a ticket for the offense!

Muley, better read the OP's posts again, no where did he say the doe license he had belonging to his son was not for the area he was hunting in. Not that it matters because many doe get killed and tagged with a taq from a different management area, you have no idea how many people are out there stealing from honest hunters and they don't wear signs. Not to bust on the op but if he wouldn't have been in possession of a tag and license for a person 1 year away from the age of majority and who legally could hunt alone, and was not present hunting with the op this would not have happened. There is only one person responsible and it is not the officer who was doing his job. Sheridan, I didn't miss the part regarding common sense, you did when you made the comment so I guess you aren't one of those who can tell the difference.

He did. Read post #6.

Actually, I see now that he said his son does not have a doe license period so I will own that one. However, there is no difference in the way a doe tag or buck tag looks untill you pretty much have it in your hand to scrutinize it. The problem is with possessing a license or tag of another is that it is a common violation, very common to have people do it in order to kill deer ilegally, they use current tags and licenses, old expired licenses and tags, family members licenses and tags and with the old licenses we no longer have, tags not filled out and taped back onto the license. Because the violation is common, and officers do not enjoy the blessing of mind reading it is not necessary to prove what the person had in mind, only to prove they did what the law prohibits(strict liability). Did the guy intend to violate, I don't know, you don't know and the officer didn't know unless the guy was caught with the tag on a deer. If the officer files a citation he did what he was paid to do, if he gives a warning, that is within his discression if he thinks it would promote voluntary compliance in the future. But for people to criticise the officer when they do not know the law in PA or the reasons for them or if the OP's story is true,( and I have no reason to say it is not), says more about those people's character than it does about the op and the officer. Fortunately we have courts that the op can plead his case to and neither he or the officer has to depend on internet opinion instead of facts.

Muley, that was a long rant from me and you were not one of those downing the officer and it wasn't aimed at you. This kind of crap is just to common on the net and it really ticks me off.

I'd never put a warden down. One of them is a good friend of mine. I realize in this case he was just doing his job.

Personally, I believe the OP had no bad intentions, and was doing what he said. I'm not the warden though, so that doesn't count for much.

Oldtimr,

Sheridan, I didn't miss the part regarding common sense, you did when you made the comment so I guess you aren't one of those who can tell the difference.

I wasn't the one who used a murder scenario as an example in discussion of this minor hunting infraction !

Your comment, not mine !

Are you going to "own" that one too ?!?!

Some decisions are hard
 

Are you fighting for yourself or your son's getting a license to continue to hunt.

I recently, in a different situation, got an increased fee for a service. I don't have much to argue about. I need the service, increase or not.
Maybe I'll have more weight in a year or two. The fee won't break me so I decided to wait to complain. The bureaucracy is on their side for now. Besides, I have to stay alive to owe the fee.
The best advice I can give to you, is not to take the son hunting in marginal places.

My son too keeps his license pinned to the back of his vest with the holder we had to use not long ago.It makes it conveianant and you always know where it is.

all injustices are worth fighting. your fighting may keep another from having to.

Seems to me the real issue here is a neighbor that probably complained about the guy being too close. Then, once that was checked out (false) the warden did some more checking. Now his son loses his license and a fine is coming. Not really a great way to promote hunting among the youth, even if the action is legally justified.

Reminds me of a time when I fished for 5 min off a bridge and then quickly stopped when I realized my license from last year just expired - the warden saw me with a spotting scope and even noted that he realized exactly what I had done noting how he figured I just remembered my license expired - but he ticketed me anyway. So I was striving to obey the law but I slipped up for an instant. Kind of like overshooting the speed limit for a second and getting clobbered with a ticket rather than a warning.

Lots of conjecture here from people that is overboard IMHO. First off, there was no injustice regarding what the OP stated happened and how it was handled by the GW. Second, there has been no fine issued to the OP, as the only thing that happened was confiscation of the boys license that wasn't good any more anyway. Finally, regarding the previous post by MZS I have this question. How in the world would the GW know that you had just figured out that your license was expired and that's why you were discontinuing fishing from the bridge. You violated the law and he had the discretion to issue a warning or a ticket and did the latter. Your stating that it was similar to a ticket for speeding for just a second or two and getting a ticket is also quite ridiculous, as how would the Officer know how long you were violating the law. IMHO the GW gave the OP a break if a ticket wasn't issued and whether he checked the OP because of a neighbor asking him to because of the distance to the private property really makes no difference. An Officer will do a number of things during a visit with a person, including checking for license violations, use of legal or illegal equipment, number of shells in the gun if there is a shell maximum, etc. Many violations are found during a stop when the actual reason for the stop or check didn't reveal a violation.

One thing I have learned from this thread is that I am overdue for deep reading my state's hunting regulations. I used to be very diligent in doing this, but haven't for some time, and laws change.

He told me so. "I noticed that you wrapped up pretty quickly and I figured you just realized your license just expired" is very close to what he said.

I wasn't aware of this rule until the recent fight over mentored youth hunting in PA.

A lot of guys kept their kid's license with theirs. So you don't lose, misplace, forget them. The mentored youth can only hunt with their mentors so they would never need to have their tags personally. The parent usually has a pack and keeps everything in the pack.

The big complaint in PA is that guys were using their kid's tag to shoot a 2nd buck. A weak argument based on paranoia and grumpy old men who don't want to compete with kids in their deer woods.

I just don't see a problem with expecting people that are responsible enough to hunt being expected to be responsible enough to keep track of their own tags/license.

I just don't see the big deal. A person responsible enough to operate a firearm should be responsible enough to take care of their own tags IMO......Especially at age 17

If a responsible family is flying out of country for vacation, one family member will probably carry all the paperwork and passports in one spot. Just easier to keep track of everything that way. It's not malicious. It's just efficient and a good way to keep track of everything. And it certainly isn't saying that anyone else in the family is irresponsible.

In PA, we used to have to wear our licenses on our backs. Then they did away with that and you just keep them in your pocket. Easier to lose. When my son and I hunted together, we never hunted apart. I never went out by myself and he didn't either. So I just put all our tags in one ziplock.

PA is trying to mirror that Tom Cruise movie where they arrested people before they committed a crime. Because they might.

What they are doing is trying to make the crime harder to commit and trying to prevent the crime. Being able to carry other peoples tags makes that crime a lot easier to commit and my guess is the law was made because of logical factual data nit just to be mean.

I'm not perfect and I don't want to sound like I'm coming off that way but this law makes a lot of sense to me.

I'd say blame the criminals that made this law necessary not the warden trying to enforce it.

I guess I'm a mean parent and I would make my kid keep track of her own license because its an opportunity to teach responsibility especially at age 17.

It doesn't make any difference if the laws are right, or wrong. It doesn't matter if they don't make sense to someone.

The laws are the laws. Obey them, and you have zero problems.

^^^Pretty simple!!!

If it were that simple we would still be answering to a king.

Breaking the laws is not the way to get them changed. You're free to try it though.

And what do you think Obama thinks he is, LOL?!

lol I'll pass on that question.

Neither is blindly following them.

Not sure what you're saying? Breaking the laws are ok with you?

Under the right circumstances yes and if need be I will exercise my right to fight them in court.

For example I will not wear a seat belt