Hunting the Wind - Question
 

I know many say to hunt with the wind in your face or make sure the wind is blowing towards your stand and not towards the woods where the deer are potentially located. However will deer still approach from the same direction if the wind is at their back (thus a favorable wind)?
Imagine you are hunting and the wind is blowing from the woods towards your stand (say you are on field edge or 50yds in the bush). I would guess a mature buck wouldn't just walk on his usual path with the wind at his back, but instead parallel the field until he was cross wind or even downwind if possible, thus your stand placement is useless even though the wind is favorable.
Is this typically the case or will a mature buck follow the same path even if the wind is not favorable for him?

Deer are inherently lazy. When deer are relaxed, unharassed, and going about their usual routine, they get comfortable. They follow known, safe, trails and travel the easiest route to where they are going. Being downwind of the easiest route to their chosen food source is the best bet you've got. That being said, they get cautious when stepping out in the open. Putting your stand on the very edge of the field, I don't think, would not be as effective as placing it back where the cover is thicker.

I'll follow that response up with the fact that they are more cautious looking where they are going than where they have come from, regardless of the wind, and many times they will have the wind at their back. The reason for that is that they can use their eyes for side and front vision while depending on their nose to detect danger coming from behind where they have already been. When a deer or elk lays down they normally lay with the wind coming over their back and watch downwind. In that way they are protected from danger coming from either direction.

1) Choose potential stand locations based on your intuition, the terrain, the cover, and the sign that you are seeing,

2) Analyse those locations in terms of the prevailing (most common) wind/breeze: a) you want your stand to be DOWN WIND from the kill zone--the wind should be in your face, b) you want your approach route to be DOWN WIND from your stand--the wind should be in your face going in, c) avoid walking through really good country getting to your stand, d) if possible, choose a stand location that dumps the smell coming off off you into a dead zone--a location not likely to hold deer.

3) No matter how hard you try to avoid it, deer may approach your stand from downwind / your blind side. Those deer are going to bust you most of the time, but there is nothing you can do about it. That's hunting--and it's usually a damn big deer that does it!

4) Concentrate on the terrain that is 90-degrees to your left, the terrain in front of you (up wind), and the terrain that is 90-degrees to your right. Move your EYES, before moving you head while you scan. LISTEN for movement. If you hear something coming from behind you don't freak out and jerk around. Don't move, if you're busted, you're busted, but sometimes you're not, so you have to play it cool.

5) Your scent will leave you (will go downwind) in a ice-cream sugar cone pattern and deer can wind you at 800+ yards. Not all the time, but I've watched deer wind me at 800+ yards.

6) Never hunt a stand when the wind is wrong for it.

7) Big deer almost never use paths or trails. It's rare, and when they do it's not for long. If you're hunting trails, you're most likely hunting does.

8) Topgun is right. Big bucks bed with their backs to the wind, looking DOWN WIND. Big bucks move regardless of the wind, they just make sure they are in cover when they do it.

9) NEVER disregard the wind. You still have a chance if a big deer hears you--just wait him out. You may have a chance if a big deer sees you--as long as he didn't see you very well--sometimes you can wait him out. You NEVER have a chance when a deer winds you--he's gone--and his flight distance will be a mile to three (3) miles in Canada.

10) ALWAYS KEEP THE WIND IN YOUR FACE (or close to it) and always be aware of where your 800-yard scent trail is going. Remember this: When you walk somewhere 90-degrees to the wind, you are leaving an 800-yard scent trail to your right or left that kills that area for several hours at least. You can do a lot of damage with a lot of reckless walking around.

Bronc

deer hunt the wind too and are very good at it. I don't think the wind is all it's cracked up to be. I think deer hunt the wind after they hear and or see danger. Don't let them hear or see danger and they won't hunt the wind for you.

I'm about as scent free (human scent) as I can be, I never get busted anymore, but I don't think that's the whole picture, I'm also very quiet and well blended. On the occasions where I do snap a twig I've had deer come looking for me and sniff hard to find me. What I think peeked their interest wasn't the smell of me, but the smell of freshly crushed earth. They would come right to the base of my tree and stand there for ever looking for what caused them to go looking.

I hunt the wind, but the wind doesn't bust me if I can't.

Last year I killed a nice buck bedded 15 yards away looking right at me and I didn't see it till after climbing into my stand and adjusting everything just to get ready to shoot including taking off my coat. Either that deer was deaf, dumb and blind or I know what I'm doing. Kind of was a let down in a way, it really was too easy. Deer never got up. I put 4 arrows through it quick. The first 2 kept it down, the next one finished it. I didn't need the forth. It couldn't go 150 yards away or it would've been on land I can't cross.

My best stand was one where deer seldom, regardless of conditions, traveled in back of my stand. My stand was in 30 yd from a field and a trail was in from the stand. When the wind was right and blowing from the trail to my stand, I never got busted. In other stands, yes, deer would find a way to get downwind from me - especially for stands that deer were aware of. Portable ground blinds upwind from a trail are nice in that deer are not aware of them and not casing them out.

When it gets closer to the Rut a Buck will usually chase a Doe any where and not be as cautious so You can get away with more closer to the Rut...still its best to stay as scent-free as possible and hunt smart!If the Does are using an area to go to and from bedding or to food the Bucks will be looking for them,its just a matter of time and good stand placement before You'll get a shot at a nice Buck.

Some thoughts on wind.

Setting up stands for the prevailing wind depends on where you hunt.

For example, here in Michigan, the prevailing wind is from the west, but if you look at 30 years of data from Lansing Michigan as shown in the the following figure, an unexpected conclusion can be reached. You can get one of these for your area at LINK

This image is called a Wind Rose. Each petal coming off it tells you the direction the wind was coming from, and the length tells you the percentage of time it came from that direction. This one happens to be from November. If you break this up into 4 quadrants, and look at the percentage of the time the wind came from each quadrant, you end up with westerly 35%, Northerly 15%, Easterly 12%, and Southerly, 32% (calm about 5%). The wind rose looks a little lopsided but that is just because the longer arms get wider, if you actually measure, you get these numbers.



So what is the definition of prevailing winds? It is the general direction that the wind comes from more often than any other. In Michigan, in November, the winds are "prevailing" about 35% of the time from Oct through Dec. But they are blowing from some other direction 65% of the time. If you set up your property mainly for prevailing winds, you will be wrong most of the time.

Not only that, but it is well known that deer move more in cold weather (northerly winds) and when low pressure is approaching (easterly winds where I live -- weather almost always come from the west, but winds can come from any direction depending on the pressure created by the weather). About 27% of the time the winds are coming from the north or east. Rather than setting up for prevailing winds, it is probably more wise to be sure you are set up for all winds, but most especially for those winds, like north winds, that are likely to bring conditions that will increase deer movement.

Another thing about winds is that most hunters listen to the weather and think that the wind in their hunting area is going to be blowing in the direction that the weatherman says it is blowing above the trees. Never mind that wind is greatly affected by what is on the ground. For example, the downwind end of a thick woods will almost invariably have a reverse wind . You can test this yourself by just walking along the downwind side and you will feel the wind drawing back into the woods. The reason is that as the wind rushes across the top of the trees it swirls into a kind of low pressure zone created by the blocking trees, much like how a draft works on a race car. You end up with something like this.



Each hunting spot will have its own characterisitcs of shaping the wind. I have one spot where, in October, if there is a brisk west wind to my north, there will be a brisk east wind to my south. Here is a wind map I have drawn from observations of autumn leaves. There is about a 30 foot elevation drop from A to B, plus I am in the lee of the woods, combined, the hill behind me and the lee of the woods create a reversal of direction.



One more example of the futility of playing the winds (in many locations) is that the wind is a fickle thing. Let a cloud go over and the wind may reverse for a while. As the sun rises, there is often a wind that may be reverse to what the main wind for the day is expected to be. These things all conspire towards making "playing the wind" alone a pretty futile plan for many of us. Here is a chart of just one day of hunting, during which I felt wind coming from every direction, but the nearby weather station in Hillsdale was not quite as bad (they took hourly reading) but illustrates my point.

On this day, Nov 13 2010, we hit the stand an hour before daylight and stayed until after dark. Notice at 5 a.m. the temperature was in the high 30s to low 40s, wind was from the east. By midday the wind was from the SE, and by evening it was from the SW. The temperature rose 24 degrees during the day, which of course changes the thermals, and The humidity fell from 87% to 37% during the day. Humidity greatly impacts the diffusion of scent molecules and how they are sensed.



I am not saying in any of this that it is not super important to consider what the wind is doing that day, but am saying that it is critically important to realize it is not always going to be blowing the way you think and it might be doing mysterious things based on the structure of the hunting area and other affects like cloud cover, humidity, etc. through the day.

These and many other observations lead me to the conclusion that the wind is a pretty fickle thing to depend on. Our main defense against this is scent control, followed by scent control, followed by scent control, in that order:)

Very informative information here.
Thanks!

If I am at a decent place, I do good on days when the wind is moving all over the place. I am usually hunting steep mountains with lots of gullys. Best time to walk up a deer is on a bad windy day. Most of the time the deer really sit tight. They are afraid to move because they can not hear or see well because everything is moving. A deer's sense of smell is highly overrated. There are very few days when they can use it to their full potential.

Getting within 20 yards of those deer?

Most of the concern about scent has to do with hunting a particular location and having to get within 20-30 yards to shoot them with a sharp stick.

I agree with some of this, but strongly disagree with Gunplummer on the rest. "Best time to walk up a deer is on a bad windy day. Most of the time the deer really sit tight." Absolutely true. The BEST time to be in the timber is a VERY windy day. The wind has to be strong enough to be moving leaves on the ground--that's the key--the leaves on the ground have to be moving around. Hunt with your face in the wind, go slow, use your binoculars in the timber trying to glass up bedded bucks. I've killed two (2) 160+" B&C bucks doing this and have passed on many smaller ones.

Gunplummer wrote, "A deer's sense of smell is highly overrated." Nope. Wrong Answer. Just last season while eating lunch at the truck, the wind changed direction and 800+ yards away I was able to observe 14 does and fawns explode out of their beds, tails up and flee the country. I can provide a mountain of evidence for the power of a deer's nose.

NEVER, EVER disregard the direction of the wind while hunting anything.

Bronc

Bioactive
 

Anybody that has a web address to show how to bait deer is not going to tell me anything of value about deer hunting. The first time you bait deer you have already disrupted the natural habits of deer. What kind of sharp stick do you use. Spear?

Again, a deer's sense of smell is highly over rated. I don't smoke anymore, but have had numerous deer within 10 feet of me with a burning cigarette and a steaming cup of coffee sitting on the log. The slightest breeze is enough to remove your scent. The reason deer take off at 800 yards when they get a wiff of you is because deer can not determine how far away you are by your scent, another wild rumor. Once the leaves are down and the rifles come out, a deer's best defense is eyesight. On a windy day deer are just screwed. I hunted VW last year. First day hard rain-no movement. 2nd day-hard rain in the morning, bad wind in the afternoon but cleared up. I was sneaking down a deep ravine out of the wind and shot a buck in less than an hour of hunting. Did that many a time and others I hunt with do it also. 20-30 yards? Try 20 feet during rifle season.

I've hunted for 60 years and anybody that says a deer's sense of smell is overrated is plain full of chit!!! If they are down wind of you, then you will never see them to even know they were there to begin with or you will see a flag giving you the raspberries as he departs the scene, LOL! Using the wind whether on stand or still hunting properly is a whole different story. If you're sneaking up on deer frequently to within 20-30 feet, why aren't you the one using a spear or bow? Shame on you for using a rifle on those poor, defenseless deer, LOL!!!

The wind is the most critical issue for big buck hunters but it all depends on what kind of hunting you do. Looks like gunplummer is from PA and they do a lot of stalk hunting in those big timber areas. If you walk around in big woods then all you need to worry about is the wind directly where you are at that moment. I would say most around the country are confined to smaller parcels of land and many hunt from stands. If you hunt from a stand you need to have the wind favorable or you won't consistently kill good bucks. I have lots of friends that give the "uncle smokes and killed big buck on stand B.s.". You can't do that consistenly. Sure you can kill 2yr old bucks that way. But you will rarely shoot mature bucks that way from a stand. Most fully mature bucks try to get the wind in their favor but they can't always do it and thus you need to try to hunt the areas that they can't have he advantage. Maybe a deep creek to your downwind side or a roadway or something. Try to get the wind favorable for the deer but more favorable for you and you will be successful.

The wind is the most critical issue for big buck hunters but it all depends on what kind of hunting you do. Looks like gunplummer is from PA and they do a lot of stalk hunting in those big timber areas. If you walk around in big woods then all you need to worry about is the wind directly where you are at that moment. I would say most around the country are confined to smaller parcels of land and many hunt from stands. If you hunt from a stand you need to have the wind favorable or you won't consistently kill good bucks. I have lots of friends that give the "uncle smokes and killed big buck on stand B.s.". You can't do that consistenly. Sure you can kill 2yr old bucks that way. But you will rarely shoot mature bucks that way from a stand. Most fully mature bucks try to get the wind in their favor but they can't always do it and thus you need to try to hunt the areas that they can't have he advantage. Maybe a deep creek to your downwind side or a roadway or something. Try to get the wind favorable for the deer but more favorable for you and you will be successful.

I agree that you need to use the wind to your advantage. I hunt with a oneida screaming Eagle. I have harvested over 30 deer since the early 1980's and have always tried to stay downwind from the deer. Deer can smell a tick fart a mile away and anybody that says their sense of smell is overrated is a rookie hunter. I think that the smell of b.s. is overrated. I am also from northwestern pa. i moved to florida for the sun and wild hogs

Wrong answer slick. stay down wind and you will find that you will harvest more deer. A deer has excellent eyesight, it's just that they are colorblind and only see in shades of gray. they can see movement very easily.

exactly... well written

I am really learning a lot here. 1. Topgunn has been hunting for 60 years and is senile. 2. If you can't cut it in Pa. move to Florida. 3. If you can't kill a buck during rifle season, take up bow hunting because it is easier to kill one then. You so called "Big buck hunters" would not stand a chance if bow hunting went back to pre-rut the way it used to be in Pa. I operated heavy equipment and had HUGE deer walked past my machine with there nose to the ground. I guess they could not smell the machine because of the noise. What nonsense. Deer are color blind? Another myth. People that pay attention figured out years ago that deer see some degree of color. The biologists are now starting to catch on. Yeah, hunting downwind is O.K. with half tame deer that move in the same areas every day. When the deer get pushed around and the wind is see sawing all over should I just go home?

If you are talking about me, I don't bait deer. Have no idea where you got that idea.

You must have read the book "How to make friends and influence people." I know most people love to be called "slick," especially when the person using the term is giving wrong information. Deer see colors very well in certain parts of the spectrum, especially in the middle to low wavelengths of yellow-green to blue, and may see better than humans as you get into the smaller wavelength blues. You might say bright blue is to them like hunter orange is to a human. They can even distinguish reds and oranges from the mid-wavelengths (in day time). So no, their world is not grey at all. Read this, (LINK) one of many articles on the subject, and let me know what you think, sport.:biggrin:

As far as staying down wind goes, that is the philosophy of most hunters. However, most hunters do not know what the wind is really doing, so often mistakenly think they are down wind when they are really up wind based on terrain features, thermals, and larger weather related effects like passing clouds.

Ever sit around a campfire in the woods? Have to move your chair at all?

Why didn't you type the last post first instead of that crap about sharp sticks? I agree. People totally over rate HOW deer can smell. I used to keep a small downey feather on a piece of thread taped to my bow when still hunting. It would shock a lot of people to see how just a boulder can change a breeze direction.
It is really funny when an older doe is real close and gets a little wiff. She almost always starts looking up trees.

Oh, I forgot to mention your comment on excellent eyesight. Deer have very low visual acuity, in fact from a few yards away, they cannot distinguish leaves on a bush. Dr. Gino D'Angelo and colleagues (I have taken a course in which Gino presented results on deer senses) studied deer vision using test similar to a vision chart in human except using black bars of different sizes. They concluded that deer have about 80% less visual acuity than humans, the equivalent of 20/100 distance vision. Analysis of the anatomy of the deer eye further supports that it is incapable of providing a high degree of acuity. LINK

Deer do collect more light in their eyes than humans do and so can see shapes better at night than we can but they still have very poor vision in terms of acuity.

In contrast, they have excellent motion detection capabilities, which is what I think you were trying to convey. They also have very good peripheral vision, but again, this mainly aids them in motion detection.

You are confusing me. Did you read my post #8? I went into a lot more detail on wind there.

Gunplummer wrote, "People totally over rate HOW deer can smell."

Understanding the importance and effect of wind direction on big game animals (including whitetail deer) is a fundamendal part of the art and science of hunting. An ignorance of these principles is similar to a doctor being ignorant of biology and anatomy, or a lawyer being ignorant of state statutes.

A hunter who ignores the wind and its profound effects on big game animals is utterly incompetent in the field and is literally wasting his time. That's a categorical statement.

I've enclosed my bona fides (that I know what I'm talking about) in the form of photos of my last 7 deer. (And I will provide photos of the 10 deer before that if that's really necessary.)

I'm always willing to view Gunplummer's last 7 deer should this debate need to continue...

Bronc

When you ignore the wind, you are wasting your time...

Bronc

I hunt public land for the most part. The photos do not impress me. Anybody can kill big deer during the rut in an area with no pressure. Why don't you hunt public land in WV and Pa during the rifle season and show us how it is done? The big deer are there, if you can get them.

I hunt PA as well, and some areas where i bow hunt are often close to houses, football fields, places with a lot of public activity, etc. where deer smell humans in the air all the time. Do you think scent is a big factor in areas like that?

You bet. A big buck's nose is his No. 2 defensive weapon. No. 3 is his hearing and No. 4 is his sight. Number 1 in a big buck's defense arsenal is his behavior--they are VERY smart and disciplined and mostly nocturnal. Most hunters DRAMATICALLY underestimate how smart and crafty mature bucks are.

Hunting big urban bucks is not easy. A city buck can tell the difference between a hunter and a non-hunter just by the sound (the pace) of their walk. And they will hang tight in their bed until you step on them.

It's the smell coming out of your lungs, your breath, the smell of your sweat, and odor of your scalp and hair that is most offensive to deer, not just detergents.

A big, mature buck will immediately stop what he is doing and exit the location after he winds you. He can wind you at a half a mile in the right conditions. And after he winds you, he will flee between a (1) mile and (5) five miles depending on the terrain.

Only a fool ignores the wind.

Bronc

Gunplummer Fork Horn

Join Date: May 2010
Location: South East Pa.
Posts: 339
I hunt public land for the most part. The photos do not impress me. Anybody can kill big deer during the rut in an area with no pressure. Why don't you hunt public land in WV and Pa during the rifle season and show us how it is done? The big deer are there, if you can get them.


***I have just one comment on that post, the one where you called me senile, as well as several others where you have sarcastically berated others. You, sir, are coming across as one big plick!!! I've probably killed more big game than you can count to as the pompous ass like you are coming across to us on this thread!!!

Yeah, are you not the know it all that is also some kind of forestry expert, or is that some one else? I believe we had run ins before. As for that bull#$%&*@ with the photos, correct me if I am wrong, but was not Kansas off limits to out of state hunters until recently? This guy is definitely hunting an"easy" area. A young guy asks a simple question and you losers give him a line of crap. A mature deer in a populated area will run five miles if he smells a man? What kind of stupidity is that? A mature deer will do everything he can not to move at all. The only trick to killing a big deer is to be able to hunt where he beds. Most really big deer killed around here get killed at night by cars. By the time it gets daylight that big guy is in some overgrown patch on some old lady's property and he could not care less whom he smells. I used too trap fox and mixed my own lures. Anybody that thinks they can mask their odor enough to fool a deer at 15-20 feet with a breeze towards the deer is really giving you a line. Happy 4th !

I have no idea what the flock you're talking about regarding previous runins regarding forestry or anything else! So no, it's not me that you're thinking of. What does Kansas have to do with what we're talking about? How do you know where "this guy" is hunting and how easy or difficult the area he hunts in is? The only loser here is you and your statements that deer's noses are overrated. If you trapped, you should know more about scent that the BS you are spouting! Where did anyone on this thread say they could mask their odor enough to escape detection by a deer that's downwind of him? FYI I very seldom use any cover scent other than possibly a little fox urine on my boots and on the tree when I'm bow hunting from a treestand. I strictly watch the wind and over the years I've had numerous deer that I could reach out and almost touch because I remained motionless and the wind was in my face coming from the deer.

LOL....killing deer (big bucks included)in PA is NOT all that difficult, whether it's in the mountains (like a real man, ha ha) or the burbs. You just have to put your time in.:wave:

As far as playing the wind...sure, all of these tactics certainly help, being as scent-proof as possible certainly DOESN'T hurt. I've had deer whiff me 100 yards+ away, and I've had them close enough where I could have jumped on their backs if I wanted to. More times than not they are on high alert, but there are times when it seems thay are just plain not paying attention to scent. But this is true of just about anything you hunt. You just have to get out there, sooner or later it all comes together.;)

Topgun
 

Your buddy Broncazonk is from Kansas. Fox urine for a cover scent? Get real. You can not cover your scent. The very scent you are using alerts deer. I have had many a deer set off a fox trap due to curiosity about the urine. Even skunk essence lets them know something is not right. Deer will usually check it out anyway because they are moving at night when they come on it. Hunting the wind is nonsense in the mountains and around houses. I can sit on my deck right now and watch the leaves to see the wind direction change constantly. A deer's nose is it's major defense? That is BS from TV shows and magazines.

The more I read your crappola the more I wonder if you've ever hunted for anything other than the outhouse, LOL! The member from Kansas isn't my buddy, but he and most others posting on this thread know one hell of a lot more than you are spouting. Have you ever hunted anywhere other than in PA? FYI I've had deer come onto my line of travel with fox urine on my boots and have had them put their nose to the ground and follow the line right up and start sniffing the tree I'm in. That ain't gonna happen without the scent! My good buddy that has taken many P&Y bucks with his bow over the years watched his back trail one morning from up in his stand and at daylight a good buck came crossways and hit his trail where he remembered touching a branch to get under it as he moved to his stand. He said that buck stopped like it hit a brick wall and backed right out of there when he caught that human scent on the branch Tom touched, so don't tell me or anyone else that a deer's nose isn't a top defense!

Pretty obvious most of you got your hunting experience from a magazine or the TV. I stated a deer's sense of smell is overrated and you guys got nasty about it, not me. There is no proof that a deer's sense of smell is their No.1 defense against hunters other than in magazines and on TV. Here are some other things for you "Experts" to mull over. A deer is color blind. No. A deer can detect your distance from it by smell. No. Deer never look up. No. Sitting in a tree actually disperses more scent than sitting on the ground. Yes. Some deer can pick out the outline of a man. Maybe. An older deer somewhat understands the potential of a rifle. Yes. Fight over that for a while, I'm busy.

Looks to me like the only friggin expert that thinks he knows everything on this thread is you that contradicts everything that is said whether it may be right or wrong. I'll ask you this question again. How many states have you hunted in other than PA and how many years do you have under your belt to make you the know it all? I've hunted IN, IL, MI, TX, WY, CO, NM, ID, ND, SD, MO, KS, and AZ to name a few and have taken over 100 big game animals in 60 years of hunting. If you can come anywhere near those travels and numbers, then tell us some of your experiences or STFU!!!

Wow that is really a lot of states! Since you have degenerated to mine is bigger than yours, here goes. I have hunted 44 years. Real hunting, not bar stool hunting. (Or driving around in the truck hunting) I have hunted in Pa., Maryland, West Virginia, and Kentucky. New Jersey once, never again. In the last 15 years the allowable take on a license has increased quite a bit. Now subtract about 7 years off the 44 years for the military and it comes to 37 years. I don't know how many deer I have shot, but my nephew did an average once and I for sure passed 50 deer a long time ago. In most eastern states the turkey is considered big game. I don't count them as big game. I don't hunt bear because I have enough cholestrol problems. There you have it. I hunt deer mainly in a state that is running low on them and WV for a couple days. Unbelievably, I am still close to your number. There are guys in Pa. that have legally shot over a 100 deer in 10 years. IN ONE STATE! Sorry, not impressed.

"I have hunted 44 years. Real hunting, not bar stool hunting. (Or driving around in the truck hunting) I have hunted in Pa., Maryland, West Virginia, and Kentucky. New Jersey once, never again."


***Somehow I figured you'd be back with something like that "mine is bigger than yours" BS and then the way you are you definitely had to add some more BS about "real hunting", etc. We also aren't talking turkey hunting in this thread! Wow, 3 or 4 other states in one small section of the country to gain all that superior knowledge to tell the rest of us we're "armchair" and "barstool" hunters and you're the King of hunters, LOL! I have to say I AM impressed-----at how big an ahole you see to be, LOL! PS: Sorry, I forgot to put in Iowa in my other post! The whitetails there and in those other midwestern/western states I've hunted make PA animals look like dogs, LOL! Now come back with some more BS to tell us how great you are and none of the rest of us know squat, but I'm done because there is no sense in dealing with a person like yourself that can't see the forest for the deer, LOL!