HuntingKS

For more info about Dave Morris and his extensive knowledge of deer and hunting, check out his Bio here: http://www.tecomate.com/content/index.php/bios/

All debates aside regarding how ethical you think the El Cazador ranch is, you can't deny this guy is an expert on whitetail deer hunting. As such, I don't doubt he would be successful wherever he chose to hunt. To say his is not a skilled or real hunter is absurd. Again, let's drop the jealousy and be big enough to be happy for someone else's success.

ACutting

You are right you deserve the right/privledge to hunt the way you do. There is no reason you should have a size limit put on your animals horns. What you don't realize is that just creates an even greater need for the hunting ranches. You have a trophy hunter segment in the hunting community, almost always have. Just like you deserve the respect to be allowed to hunt the way you enjoy so do they. Theres no reason however, that I see, that you should have to pass on an animal that your daughter calls in for you. Without creating those lasting memories with the new hunters the hunting population is going to continue shrink. People like your friends needs to realize they need to bring their kids out hunting once in a while. I'm not saying they need to stop being trophy hunters but they need to make time for their kids to get into the sport. Hunter recruitment is at an all time low. I don't have any children myself but I take my newphews out every chance I can. One of my nephews got to go out hunting for the first time this year. I took him out squirrel hunting and as far as he's concerned that was the greatest thing in the world. He's a little young still to sit in a deer stand but in a few years he'll be doing that with me as well.

We still need the ranches though. People are willing to hunt but don't have the time but do have the money they deserve the same respect you do. So the guy had to pay to hunt. In the end we all have to pay to hunt. We buy our tags, we take time off from work, we drive out 60 miles from where we live and drive back, and it doesn't take long before you realize you've spent. Time equals money and in this case money can make up for a lack of time. I'm not saying every ranch hunter is that way. Some of them have the time and the money but they hunt on ranchs because they can and want to. But I have friends who are business men that don't have time to get out in the woods and scout and then sit on the stand every weekend. They barely get enough time with their families. So hunting on ranches provides them a way to continue hunting and still balance the their time out. Yeah they pay some big money but what they are paying for is someone else time to scout, setup the stands, learn the proper hunting techniques for the area and such. Hunting ranches, high fenced or not, will not be the downfall of hunting. Our lack of support for each other will.

Your feelings on this are your feelings however again if you deserve respect so do they. With proper management there is nothing wrong with what that offers. I can understand why its not allowed in some of the record books because really the animals antlers have been genetically altered through the use of selective breeding. But again this fills a segment of hunting. Due to lack of time people don't have the ability to hunt like they used to and people want to be successful. If that animal is important to them let it be important to them. My greatest "trophy" is a little basket rack, why it was my first deer and I was there with my father. But to the hunters that are hunting in preserves that deer is every bit as important to them. There is nothing unethical about hunting that way(there are preserves that are but in general). Again its a point of money making up for time. Or maybe that guy has been hunting for 10 years and has yet to harvest an animal he is happy with or harvest one at all. Going to the preserve to hunt may be what turns his attitude around from thinking about quitting hunting to continuing to hunt. Contrary to popular belief hunting in preserve is not shooting fish in a barrel.

Charlie P

I'm not asking for respect, and honestly I don't respect that type of hunting, never will. I'm not asking for it to be banned, but don't consider most of the people that do it to be hunters.

Three day hunt in a preserve what would be your guess at the success rate?

Are you involved with ownig our operating a preserve Acutting?

ipscshooter

Regarding your last two paragraphs... Morris' ranch is free range. No high fences. He plants food plots, but, I don't think he hunts them. He hunts the senderos that deer cross when transitioning from bedding areas to feeding areas.

I find it somewhat interesting that folks who live in a mostly capitalist society get all communist when it comes to their hunting. If I've got 5,000 acres, and I've managed the place well, and the deer on my land are allowed to reach maturity and happen to grow massive racks, why shouldn't I be allowed to charge what the market will bear to hunt on my land? Seems like some of you guys think that, despite my investment of time and money managing my property to improve its quality to support native game, I should nonetheless have to allow any Tom, Dick or Jane to hunt there free of charge...

ACutting

Your obviously very stuborn and stuck in your ways. Which is fine. But you still need to respect the other hunters. Otherwise why should they respect you and your way of hunting?

Three day hunts in preserves run close to 100% success. But it is not 100% I've personally been on hunts inside preserves that the animals they were hunting were never found. They were there somewhere but it never worked out. A properly managed hunt inside the fence is just as challenging as outside the fence. The fence is there at that point not to keep animals in but to keep people out.

Nope. Don't own or operate a preserve. Believe it or not I spend most of my time hunting on state land. If I did own one I'd offer you a chance to come out and see what really happens on a preserve. But from what I know from this discussion you'd decline. Which would be because you judge the preserves with out ever actually experiencing what happens there. Sometimes things that seem like they are not good end up being just the opposite. The first time I hunted on a preserve was because I wanted to fill my freezer with Bison meat. It was cheaper for me to hunt a bison then it was for me to get one from the farmer. I was very aprehensive about the experience but my pocket book dictated that it was the best thing to do. After seeing how the hunting took place and realizing that it was an enjoyable experience I went back another time. I didn't harvest anything the second time (My sika hunt). My wife however did and she as well enjoyed the experience. I would like to learn why you think they are such a bad thing for the hunting community as a whole.

ACutting

ipscshooter - actually north america is really about the only place that paying by the inch for hunting animals isn't acceptible. Most hunting locales around the globe they charge by trophy size. Its fair to the hunter and its fair to the guide service. Most times its more work to locate large trophies then it is smaller because of availability. So they should be able to charge more for large trophies. Beyond that it is a simple principle of supply and demand. The demand for large trophies is very high while the supply is low. So the equalibrium price point is a high rate then a smaller trophy. There is no reason you shouldn't be able to charge what the market demands for hunting on your property. I'll let you hunt in my backyard if you want. No one will pay me for it though because there are no deer. There is no demand to hunt in my backyard and the supply is very high.

Charlie P

Just sitting here shaking my head.


LOL, then why are the fences high enough that the deer can't jump them?

ACutting

The point of the fence is you don't want people leeching off of your hard work. Loosing animals can be very expensive. On many of the larger preserves most animals would never leave the preserve because they have all the resources they require right there. Tecomate ranch is a prime example of that concept. He has no fences yet the animals stay. Many of the hunts outside the fence that are guided also run close to 100% so there is not a difference in success rate. The only difference is your mentalality of it all. The the average homerange of a whitetail deer is rougly 200 acres. So if a preserve is larger then that the deer is affected very little by the fact that there is a fence. It does not change its ability to escape from hunters. Most deer run a couple of hundred yards from the source and circle back around to end up very close to where they started. The reason the success rates are so high is the fact the people guiding the hunts are experiences and familiar with the terrain and habits of the animals on it. Its not because the animals can't get away from the hunters. Hell you can hunt deer in some areas on 10 acres and have deer avoid you.

You obviously have a deep rooted problem with preserves. Which again you need to be respectful of other hunters just as they need to respect you. Just because you don't want to hunt on a preserve because you don't think it would provide you the hunting experience that you would enjoy doesn't make it wrong. And it also doesn't make the people who do hunt there not hunters. You can not fairly judge something like this that you have not done yourself.

Charlie P

So you don't want them to get out.

When you own an animal it's livestock.

Unless tha deer wanted it's home range to be outside of the fence.

Lol, yea it's guides experinece.

Once again I don't have to respect anything I don't feel deserves respect. If someone doesn't respect the way I hunt etc. it's thier perogative no skin off my butt.

You respect every hunter?

Guess we'll have to agree to disagree.

Thought they didn't have a fence is it two different set ups? Are the deer El Cazador over a normal carrying capicity?

doall hunter

Well all want to kill big bucks right? Thats what he does. It's not like he has a gps traking unit in every buck born so he will know where they are and where they are heading. He basiclly manages deer and hopes to see the mature ones. So when he manages the deer properly he gets to see big bucks more often.