Muzzle Loader Bullet Question
 

I started Muzzle loader hunting two seasons ago so this is my third season. I have a CVA Optima Pro and the book that came with it stated the recommended round for the gun were Power belt bullets. I did not know much about muzzle loaders so I went with power belts in a 245 grain aero tip. I started out shooting 100 grains of powder (2 pellets) and I felt the accuracy was not there out to 100 yards, so this season I upped the powder charge to 150(3 pellets) with the same bullet, it seems to shoot more consistently.

Here is the issue I am having. I cover my scent pretty well (at least i think so) and i see plenty of deer and usually have them very close to me in my tree stand(5-30 yards). I have shot 4 deer with my muzzle loader in the last 3 seasons (2 with 100 grains and 2 with 150 grains) and all 4 have been within 40 yards. the first one I shot him and he went 10 feet and fell, no problem. The other 3 I shot them and only 1 had a blood trail and exit wound. The other 2 were within 20 yards and both bucks. I hit them behind the shoulder (1 with 100 grains and 1 with 150) and both deer had no exit wound and barely any blood at the spot i hit them in and little to no blood on the trail. When i opened the deer up (because I did not give up and found them) it looks like the bullet exploded inside of them.

Sorry about the long drawn out story I just wanted people to have the background facts. My question is, is this because of the bullet, the powder load, a combination of both, or the range. Also should I be using another kind of bullet and has any one had this happen to them?

RE: Muzzle Loader Bullet Question
 

I think its probably shot placement, I shot a buck this season, hit it in the shoulder and no blood trail. I have shot 3 other deer with it, 2 with passthroughs. By the way I am using 100gr. powerbelt bullets. I don't know the weight, sorry.

RE: Muzzle Loader Bullet Question
 

If you are going to shoot the powerbelt, you need to back your load down to aroun 80 grains, that should stop the bulleet from fragmenting. I shot a doe this year, (my first with the ML) and I did not get a pass thru either, but I did recover the bullet. I am shooting a CVA Wolf, with the 295 grain powerbelt. (this was with the hollow point, but I think I am going to switch to the aerotip) I am using 80 grains of 777 loose powder, and a winchester 777 209 primer.

RE: Muzzle Loader Bullet Question
 

Is this a 50 cal? Try the TC shockwave sabots 250gr. Shot some deer with this bullet using 100gr powder and it put a halachious hole in em. I shoot an omega though and at 100 yards its drivin tacs.... I'm guessing you do but your accuracy may be an issue of not cleaning your barrel out every couple shots. I had this prob right away as I didnt know i was supose to clean it so often (was really confused then I read the manual, haha) but now she shoots dead on every time.

RE: Muzzle Loader Bullet Question
 

Probably because they make them.
Lots of far better choices - most less money as well.
If you have to shoot them for some reason, use no more then 80 gr powder to stop fragmentation.

Steve

RE: Muzzle Loader Bullet Question
 

That's your answer in a nut-shell. My suggestion would be for you this summer to tinker around with other bullets. LOTS of better choices in bullets out there.

Google "Powerbelt fragment" and "Barnes fragment" or "Nosler fragment" and see the differences in hits ;)

RE: Muzzle Loader Bullet Question
 

Bone...You might want to post this over in the Black Powder section...These guys covered it pretty good, basically you don't want to push Power Belts too fast, they are made of lead so they can squat and grip the rifling...So, they fragment pretty easily with close tange shots and higher velocity...

I see no need for 150gr powder charges in muzzleloaders...80-120 is plenty...

RE: Muzzle Loader Bullet Question
 

I like my Hornaday 250 grain bullets. I have had a lot of success with them.

RE: Muzzle Loader Bullet Question
 

I had the same experience with the powerbelts on 3 deer this year, Luckily I was able to recover them, none of them ran more than 50 yds.
Next time I use a ML i will use the shockwaves, Ive heard nothing but good things about them. Good luck!

RE: Muzzle Loader Bullet Question
 

Powerbelts are not a very good quality bullet if you use over 80 grains of powder at close range they blow up they are not a bonded bullet. The first year I hunted with a muzzle loader I lost a deer using them. Go to the black powder forumyou can get a lot of help there

RE: Muzzle Loader Bullet Question
 

Well, I'm going to simplify this a bit. Deer(and everything else) are killed by the diameter and passthrough. Diameter(expanded, if that applies) is what determines the overall diameter of tissue damaged.

Passthrough is important because of the length of the wound channel, and because exit holes bleed much more than entrance holes.

So, you need to find atouger bullet which will exit. Your bullet is exploding, which causes more damage where it explodes, but it carries a much smaller diameter to it's final resting place. It also causes it to not exit. Lowering your powder charge might help. Pellets will never give ideal results, theye are just easy. They are too coarse. Try loose powder somewhere between 100 and 150 grains. If you lower your charge down, the current bullet might hold together and exit on these close shots. With "quick loaders", you can load as fast as pellets and be more acccurate to boot. Also, you might look for a bullet designed for higher velocities.

RE: Muzzle Loader Bullet Question
 

the gang i hunt and i all use the 295 powerbelt. we all shoot 100grns of either 777,pyrodex or blackpowder. we have had no problems with killing pwer or the lack of blood trails. we've only killed somewhere around 175 deer with these bullets. i wouldn't go over 100 grns of any powder with powerbelt of any kind,these bullets do not have a true jacket like regular bullets. they are copper plated,just a thin coating to help the load easier.i dont like the real light weight muzzleloader bullets of any kind,with a 50cal.i'd stay up around 300grns of bullet.

i've been shooting some of the new blackhorn 209 powder lately in my triumph,i'm only shooting 80 grns because blackhorn is a hotter powder.

RE: Muzzle Loader Bullet Question
 

I was using the power belts out of my optmia elite with 110gr of powder. I only shot 1 deer with this load and it worked well, but the fellers in the blackpowder forumenlightened me that these bullets would fragment with this load and suggested that i lower my powder down to 80grs. This load shot so well i hated to lower my load and because sometimes i need to shoot at longer ranges. So i switched to shock waves 250gr bonded bullets. I shot a 8pt early this year and it performed perfectly to, a complete pass thru and the blood trail was perfuse. I know that you cant tell how good a bullet will be from just one kill, but the SW got off to a good start. I have muzzleloaded since I was 16 years old, but I have just started using the sabots the last couple of years, I have always used TC maxi's and super slugs out of my white shooting system rifle. GOOD LUCK

RE: Muzzle Loader Bullet Question
 

That is why I told him not to use more then 80 grains. I am having no problems with them, so I see no reason to switch. I tried using several different bullets, and I couldnt even get them down the barrel.

RE: Muzzle Loader Bullet Question
 

I've used Knight Jacketed .260gr sabots for ever. Those things work EVERY time, perfectly. I have a 1994MK-85....shooting 100gr pyrodex, and it is as accurate and hard hitting as anything I've ever used. I've killed deer with it from 20yds to 125yds....never lost one, and never not had a pass through with a good blood trail. I've never seen the need to even try anything else, and honestly probably never will. I can't possibly get better performance than what I get now.

RE: Muzzle Loader Bullet Question
 

Do yourself a favor. Get some Barnes bullets. They open up perfectly on flesh and make awesome blood trails. They are made of copper not lead and stay together. Everyone says they are expensive but they are no more expensive then Powerbelts. I have shot Powerbelts and Shockwaves in the past and they are not as good a a Barnes bullet. Nosler partition bullets are also very good. Powerbelts are accurate, easy to push down the barrel, and are easy to find.Thats why people buy them. If you want a passthru go with the 300 grain bullet. 100 grains of powder should be enough as well. Some of the Knight bullets are actually Barnes bullets packaged by Knight but I prefer the Barnes TEZ which Knight doesn't have.

RE: Muzzle Loader Bullet Question
 

I have found after 20+ years of muzzleloading (15 years with modern day MLs) that a plain jane soboted 45cal XTP from hornady (240 or 300 gr) does everything I want and more. Just get a box of bullets from a reloading supplier abd buy bulk sabots and you set. I could get the same accuracy whether shooting 100 grain loose or 150 grains pellets.

RE: Muzzle Loader Bullet Question
 

Unfortunately I have to cry foul on that statement. While many deer are harvested due to the wound channel and loss of blood that would be a very real scenario for archery. When shooting a deer with a firearm be it a rifle, pistol or muzzleloader the real killing power comes from the hydrostatic shock that is imparted as the bullet strikes and enters the target. Also bullets do not explode, there is no explosive charge in them, bullets fragment, some more than others. Like has been said the powerbelts are not the best choice for powder charges above 100 gr. I personally shoot a CVA Wolf and use 130 gr of pyrodex pellets and WW 209 primers pushing the 250 gr Hornady SST muzzleloader bullet. The T/C shockwave bullet is made by Hornady and is an SST with a yellow tip. I consistantly get 2-3" groups at 100 yds with that bullet/charge using my ghost ring sights. I'd suggest finishing up your season with what you have and during the spring and summer buy some different bullets and see what your gun likes best.

RE: Muzzle Loader Bullet Question
 

Shoot some Barnes Expander MZs/Crushed Rib sabots, 2 50gr Pyrodex pellets with Winchester W209 primers. GAME OVER!

RE: Muzzle Loader Bullet Question
 

i stopped using barnes bullets after a fired them into 8in of cataloges and the bullets still look new ,never expanded at all. i believe you coulda reloaded them and shot them again.

RE: Muzzle Loader Bullet Question
 

+1 on the fact that most gun kills are realted to hydrostatic shock. Just think about all the hunting shows and the number of times you have seen deer "planted". Wound channels don't have enough time to work at that point. I would say that the the need for a good wound channel when gun hunting would be nice with a perfect broadside shoot that hits nothing but internals and muscle. That deer will die but will need some tracking IMO.

RE: Muzzle Loader Bullet Question
 

You have to shoot them into game for them to open up...I used them on a dozen or so deer and they are a very good bullet...Cataloges and deer are very different...

RE: Muzzle Loader Bullet Question
 

When they are drt, it's usually a cns hit...Like a high shoulder shot...

RE: Muzzle Loader Bullet Question
 

What kind of accuracy are you guys seeing when shooting those hollow point bullets out to 200 yards? I.E. Barnes Expander MZ and Hornaday XTP....

RE: Muzzle Loader Bullet Question
 

Kyle:

You are using 100 gr. powder and not (2) pyrodex pellets correct?

I use a TC Omega also.
.50 caliber
(2) pyrodex pellets
Hornady Sabot (not sure of all of the specs from here at work)

I do not have an accuracy issue, however, the entry and exit holes are usually small little holes.
I usually get no hair at impact and no blood trail for the first 50 yards.

I was actualy contemplating going back to the shotgun with 1oz. slugs.

Maybe I will try the TC Shockwave Sabots - just wondering how much difference the Pyrodex will make versus the powder.

RE: Muzzle Loader Bullet Question
 

SWThomas...The short answer is that you need to work up a load for each before you will really know...

Longer answer...A few years back I did some testing with my Knight to find the best long range bullet in my gun...I shot about 6 different projectiles, got my best groups and shot them out to 150 yards...
Now, for some reason, my gun didn't like either the .451 250gr or 300gr Hornady XTP bullets...These are a good option as you can buy them in bulk and match them up with the MMP sabots, saving money...

I also tried the Dead Centers in 2 different weights, but my gun didn't like them either...So I ended up with the 295 PowerBelts, the 300gr Barnes MZ and the 250 T/C Shockwaves...

The PowerBelts and Barnes both preferred 100grs of Goex FFF or Pyrodex RS...The Shockwaves preferred 90grs of the same...I sighted them each in at 2 1/2 inches high at 100 yards and then checked them at 150 yards...The 250 Shockwaves hit 3 inches low, the Barnes about 8 inches low and the Powerbelts a foot low, with the group really opening up as well...Groups with the Shockwaves and Barnes were both about 3 inches at 150...

I had used the Barnes for a few years, so I decided to go with the Shockwaves for awhile...I've killed 7-8 with the Shockwaves and a buddy has killed another 6 with his...My longest kill was at a ranged 147 yards...

We have killed about 15 deer with the 295 PowerBelts and still have one guy that uses them...We also had problems with exits...I will say that bullets recovered have mushroomed very nicely...I just prefer an exit wound for better blood trails...

The thing we alll need to remember is that with a muzzleloader, we are handloading...We need to anticipate how far the shot will be and use a bullet that will preform within those velocities...Any of these bullets will fragment if pushed too fast (just like centerfires)...

I've also seen reports in the Shockwaves and Hornady SSTs (same bullet) both being too hard and fragmenting...So some say it's too hard and some too soft...It all goes back to velocity...You take a Shockwave and run it out to 2200-2300 (like out of a Savage with smokeless powder) and shoot a deer at say, 15 yards and it could fragment...

Frankly, if shots are within 100 yards, a Shockwave isn't needed...The 250 or 300 Barnes MZ or the Hornady .451 250 or 300 XTPsare excellent bullets for this situation...What the Shockwave gives you is a higher BC (more streamlined) bullet that will drop less once you pass that 100-125 yard mark...

There are a couple of other good hollow point bullets that the guys over in the Black Powder section talk about I just can't recall them right now, but a search will pull them up...I believe one is made by Nosler and one by Speer...

RE: Muzzle Loader Bullet Question
 

No I'm using the 2 50gr pyrodex pellets. I hit bone with it this year when I shot a doe and the exit hole was between the size of a golf ball and a tenis ball. Entrance was decent size. Wasn't a real far shot though. Its actually my uncles gun that ive used a couple times cuz i draw a park tag during our gun season some times and its ml only. He has shot a few deer and my aunt shot a muley this year with it and non of them went too far. I'm lookin to get an encore sometime I supose.WCL

RE: Muzzle Loader Bullet Question
 

Thank you for the correction, I used explode wrong. Fragment is a much better description.

I will still disagree that hydrostatic shock is the key to making a consistent killing load. It is certainly aa factor, especially when the animal is planted as we have all seen. I would still say bullet diameter and complete penetration are the key to making a consistent killing load. I guess we will agree to disagree. I have just seen too many animals drop and then walk away. Once they are back on their feet again, it is the wound channel and the bleed out which gets the job completed.

RE: Muzzle Loader Bullet Question
 

I used to shoot powerbelts... I switched over to shockwaves... they seem to do more damage

RE: Muzzle Loader Bullet Question
 

Personally, I have had excellent results with .44-240gr Hornady XTP saboted bullets in front of 150 gr. Triple Seven. I know many people frown on use of 150gr. of powder, but it's the load I've worked up that works best in my TC Encore.